Best "set it and forget it" turbo kit for the money
 

So I've been lurking around and wanting to turbo for a while. I've been wanting to buy the FM Voodoo II kit because it seems like the simplest "set it and forget it" type of kit, however, my worry is that I'll have to cut the ECU harness. Then I took a look at the Begi NB200 in which the team is claiming 200ish rwhp for just a "set it and forget it" type of a kit. This kit utilizes a reflash of the ECU, so no modification of the ECU harness.

Wanted to know what everyones thoughts are in which would be best to potentially get.

I have no need to upgrade to 250+rwhp all I am looking is for at least 200rwhp to have more fun in my Miata.

I completely disagree with Corky about tuning for 12.5AFR in boost. Many agree that its stupid and dangerous. And that + about 10psi is what you'd need to run to reach 200whp. Add a bad batch of pump gas to the equation and the slogan should read "set it and forget it......until you have to replace your engine in a few months"

There is a thread on this forum about the NB200 kit. If you read it you will see what the opinions are.

So you would suggest the VooDoo II kit over the NB200? I know that everyone hates anything that doesn't have a stand alone ECU, but again, for the time being I don't need anything special. I just want to slap the kit on, enjoy it, and when it comes time to upgrade, I can shell out the extra money needed to do that instead of doing it upfront now.

Or, now that I just thought about it. Pickup a FMII kit without electronics and wait for a stand alone to come up for cheap.

For example, there is a DIYPNP on here for $600 or a Greddy eManage on here for $400.

That would bring the kit to around $3400-$3600 and that would be a complete kit I believe

get a non-electronics kit from either of the 2 major vendors.
add injectors wideband and ems.

do it right or suffer the consequences

*edit:
if you decide to absolutely take the oem reflash route, I'd get 330cc injectors or something like that, so that you can still go back to stock if need be yet have at least enough injector to get to 10psi. I hear the NB oem ecu can handle up to 330cc without too much trouble, not 100% on that though.

Oh one last question, my Miata right now just has all stock other then plug wires and a racing beat exhaust. The DP will connect up to the racing beat exhaust right? or am I going to need to upgrade the exhaust as well.

it should bolt up.

also now that I think about it begi also has the xede available. its not a great solution, but its not terrible, and comes with an adapter harness

Thanks 18 for your help.

You're in California as well right? I thought I saw a thread where he bought a turbo kit off you and you were both in Sacramento.

I'm in San Jose (about an hour and half South of you) and I guess it works out. Seeing how CA smog blows, if we can't "smog" the car, then what would be your best bet for a kit?

What I'm asking is, in the worst case scenario that I have to uninstall the kit every two years, I want something where I can uninstall the hardware of the kit itself, install the stock parts and bring it in and it'll pass smog. If I'm going to be playing around with the ECU, is there a plug n play ECU that the technician wouldn't know about or will I then have to swap the stock ECU back in as well.

Lastly, I see Begi has Shanghai kits for a little bit cheaper. Seems like it is hit in miss with the china turbos so you'd suggest to stay away from those kits?

you have an NB1 right?

get a pnp MS2 or MS3 from Rev or Brain. It takes all of 5 minutes to unplug it and plug in the stock ecu.

as for injectors and everything else - remove and re-install every 2 years. or you can pick up a FFS kit which is smog legal here. In fact I'm trying one right now;) (I'll post results as soon as I'm done tuning it in a few days).

*edit: also I'll probably be selling it in a few months when my built engine is done and I run some serious boost ;)

Yes I have an NB1 (2000)

I actually looked into the FFS kit first but I've heard it is extremely limited. With all upgrades you can do to the kit (smaller pulley, etc) the kit will only put down around 175-200rwhp and then that's the limit of the kit, no growth potential.

At least with the turbo kits, you put the up front costs for the parts and you're limitations are at continuously least upgradable (turbo, injectors, etc until the block ends up being your limitation).

What made you want to test out the FFS? I'm just thinking for the same price, why cap ourselves off.

Also, another thing that I just thought about, I'll have to go through my parts section in the garage, but I've seen a lot of people utilize RX7 injectors. Stock RX7 injectors are 550CC primary and 750CC secondary. I removed these when I went single turbo. I'd be able to use the 550's right?

Man I missed this
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1373040985

From what I've seen it should do 180-190 on the base 10psi pulley and pump gas.
With a larger pulley it should do 200-220.
With larger pulley and e85 it should do well into the 250 range.

It pretty much is "set and forget" though, and the CARB cert is basically its biggest pro.

Why'd I try it? Its between that or driving it stock for the next few months til I shoot for 300+ and 180-200whp sounds a whole lot better than 120whp

Haha, so you bought a full FFS kit as a temporary HP fix while you build up a turbo setup? I like the way you think

Supercharger kits are the only things I've seen out there that are the most set it and forget it type setup. But yea what 18psi said.

Begi has a carb legal kit for cars up to '99 if thats a concern of yours.

not in ca

lol@18 recommending an FFS kit

wtf is going on in this place. Maybe we do need to unban Fae.

So I'm going to end up going with a BEGI kit I believe.

I've priced the two FMII without electronics and the BEGI kit has a much more "complete" kit from the start (hardline oil/water lines, ceramic coatings, etc.) vs the FMII where those are options necessary to pay extra.

Now it's determining between the Begi Shanghai S1 or S3 kit. It seems as though the only difference between the S1 and S3 is "this system does not include the Stainless Steel Downpipe, FMU, Cold Air Box, Radiator Cover, Compressor Inlet Tube Heatshield, or Air Scooper."

I don't think any of those are necessary and that's about a $500 saving which I can put towards a DIYPNP

Here is what I'm thinking:

BEGI S1 or S3 Kit (what turbo? there is a T25 or 2871)
DIYPNP
Injectors (what size do I need?)
AEM Wideband
AEM Boost Controller/Boost gauge

I'm hoping the setup will be able to give me at least 200rwhp safely

cool story bro
it won't work in CA
I'm not just recommending an FFS kit you homos. Stop riding my nuts about it. He asked about CA legal kit or something that will be "set and forget" including smog/inspection. I mentioned FFS because it is both of those. Is it better than a turbo setup? Heck no

RX8 425cc.

A couple of things that are not necessarily obvious from the vendor descriptions of the two kits:

1) BEGI kits have a reputation for frequently requiring a fair bit of work with a grinder to get them to actually fit. This is substantially less true of the more recent FM kits.

2) There's a reason that the China turbo that comes with the Shanghai kits is $600 cheaper than a real Garrett turbo. It may bolt up to the same flanges, but it won't spool the same as a real one. Turbine blade design is not simple.

--Ian

I dont understand how it says its carb (California air regulatory board) legal, but isn't legal in CA, not saying your wrong, just confused.

BEGI's 99 CARB EO was done with a bunch of hardware that's no longer available. It used the Link Piggy, and the EO text actually calls for aux injectors installed in the throttle body. A standalone MSPNP won't pass, because it won't give out the OBD2 codes. A dual-mode MS could be made to work, but is harder to set up.

The kit also used a different manifold that mounted the turbo further forwards so that there was room to mount the CA-emissions 99 pre-cat in the downpipe, a few inches below the turbo. Those manifolds are no longer available.

So it's probably possible to make a 1999 (not 2000 or any later NB) pass CA smog with a BEGI kit if it was a non-CA emissions car (ie, one without a pre-cat) that was brought into California as a used car, is hooked up with a dual-mode MS for control, and you get a tech who doesn't read the details of the EO all that closely.

--Ian

Things may have changed.

I found a FM kit however it is a kit for a 1.8 NA. My question is this kit should fit an NB yes? If not, the only potential parts I can see that wouldn't fit is the manifold and potentially the stainless lines aren't long enough in comparing NA vs NB?

The exhaust manifold should fit the head, but the EGR might be different. The intercooler mounting hardware might be different too. The airbox won't fit, and the there might be some differences in the intercooler pipes/etc. The ECUs are also different.

If your goal in buying an FM kit is to get the plug-and-play ease of installation for which FM is known, then buying a used kit that's the wrong year is not the right way to go about it. :)

--Ian

I have a DIYPNP on its way so the ECU is taken care of.

a FM without electronics is still basically $3k and then you need to grab injectors and wideband. I'd also want hard oil/water lines, so that is an additional $189 option. The BEGi Shanghai S1 kit is basically $2,500 + the items noted above and it comes ceramic coated and stainless steel lines standard.

The differences between the kits is about $600

This used kit I'm looking at would cost $1500 and has the following. The manifold is cracked, so I'd have to buy a new one, that's $350ish. If I need to buy a new intake and IC, I'm assuming the cost would still be below $3000

-Garret GT2560R Turbo
-FM manifold
-FM Downpipe
-Tial 38mm external wastegate
-Braided stainless oil supply line
-Drill bit, thread tap, and hose barb for oil return
-K&N air filter
-upgraded silicon hose connectors
-upgraded stainless steel T-clamps
-intercooler with hard pipes
-check valve for EVAP
-Inline adapter ports for boost gauge/MAP sensor
-Mitsubishi OEM blowoff valve with K&N
-RC 550 injectors with ballast resistors
-Original installation instruction books

lol no, they both use stock injectors... Injectors that max out at 6psi assuming you want to keep bellow 12afr.

If it's an FM kit that uses an external wastegate, that sounds like an old FM3. These kits were notorious for very-hard-to-access nuts on the external WG flanges, which were also prone to coming loose at the slightest provocation. There's a reason they only made them for a couple years. Perhaps modern inconel studs would fix the coming loose problem -- I don't know if anyone's tested it.

If the manifold is cracked on that kit to the point that it can't be repaired, then you're screwed. Nobody makes new FM3 manifolds, so there's no way to hook up that EWG. You're buying a turbo (checked for shaft play in it?), an intercooler (older, less-efficient, top-to-bottom flow design), some pipes, some injectors (that probably need to be sent out to be cleaned and flow checked), and miscellaneous bits of hardware. The downpipe is useless because it's set up for EWG, not IWG, and you don't have anywhere to attach that EWG on the manifold end. It could probably be modified for IWG use, but that's more money unless you're skilled with a welder.

The newer FM2R kits that use an EWG use the newer Garrett turbine exhaust housings with V-band EWG fittings built in, rather than a manifold EWG flange.

You need to decide what your primary requirement is -- ease of installation and lack of long-term problems (like you mentioned in the thread subject) or low cost, because you're not going to get both. If it's the former, then I'd recommend buying a new FM kit of some description. If it's the latter, then trolling the classifieds for used parts will get you there for a third to a half the cost, but at 2-3x the time and effort required.

--Ian

Thank you cordus for breaking down the details o why begi carb kit doesn't work in CA.

I knew there was something (we discussed long ago), but wasn't sure of the details.

Kinda sucks, I was hoping to keep it carb legal, but I that ain't happenin.

Perhaps buy a knn intake and move the carb sticker ot the turbo?

I wonder if that would work...

Doubtful, the tech would really have to be an idiot to miss that. If they look up the EO in the computer and it says "turbo kit" they're not going to know exactly what shipped with the FM2. If it says "intake air filter", well, that's pretty obvious that it doesn't include a new exhaust manifold and turbo. :)

For an NB you still need to make it talk OBD2 to the smog computer, anyway. MS2s don't do that.

--Ian

Still can't decide which kit I want to go with.

The Begi Shanghai S1 is about $500-$600 cheaper and has more standard features than the FMII does (ceramic coating, stainless steel lines, larger intercooler, etc) but I've heard the BEGI fitment is "eh"

If I went with the FMII it would be an extra $500-$600 without the options that come standard with the Begi Shanghai S1

As I said above, most of that $600 is in the form of a real Garrett turbo.

https://www.miataturbo.net/dynos-tim...t-2560r-55207/

--Ian

My begi kit was a little low on clearance here and there but not impossible. If you want easy installation look for a vband setup.

I think I'm in more or less the same boat as you in terms of the outcome I want, but I'm getting pretty confused trying to follow this.

I thought you wanted a +/- 200 whp kit. The FMII-without-electronics or the BEGi S1 will do this easily, although it may have to work a bit harder with the Shanghai S1 because of the less efficient churbo. Both have straight forward upgrade paths to as much power as your engine can handle (stock or built).

If you look at the BEGi S1 kit with the Garrett turbo it is slightly more expensive than the FM II without electronics, so the savings in the Shanghai S1 kit are from the cheaper turbo. FM doesn't sell churbo kits, but you can buy everything else in the FMII kit from them so you could put together an FM II with a churbo if you wanted, which would be hundreds cheaper than the FM II kit with a Garrett turbo. You have to decide whether the significantly lower cost of a churbo offsets the decrease in performance and reliability compared to the Garrett turbos. Many people find that acceptable. But trying to decide whether a ceramic coated churbo and hard oil lines, etc offsets a Garrett and silicon oil lines, etc just throws in too many variables. It's not that this is comparing apples to oranges -- it ends up as trying to compare two different baskets of fruit.

Some of the things included with the BEGi S1 kit may not be of much value to you unless you push the power well past 200whp. According to BEGi, when they made the NB200 kit they took "the existing [Shanghai] S1 turbo system and simplified it to make a complete kit that is easy to install." What they dropped from the S1 kit were things they didn't think necessary for a low (8-10 psi) boost, 200 whp kit. Some of the things you list as advantages for the BEGi S1 are those things BEGi dropped from the NB200. For example, according to BEGi, with low boost systems "the ceramic coating is mainly for looks. It will not show surface rust like the standard black painted manifolds. The ceramic coating will have a small benefit for heat reduction, but it is not very significant on this application" -- which is why it is optional on the NB200 kit.

BTW, according to Corky Bell, BEGi is moving to using external wastegates (now on the NB200) with all its kits, and if I understood him correctly in the NB200 discussion he indicated it would be better to upgrade an NB200 (with bigger injectors, MegaSquirt, etc) if you wanted more than 200whp than to buy one of their other current kits (without external wastegates) already set for higher power.

The BEGi and FM kits each have advantages and disadvantages (although there will be disagreement about what those are!), but on balance are pretty equal. There is no clear winner. You need to determine your priorities and either choose the pre-fab kit that comes closest to matching them or take the DIY route and put together a system of your individually chosen components.

:2cents:

Bill

The only thing i like about the nb200 kit is the external wastegate... the 12.5-13afr at 9psi of boost on the other hand... no thank you. The only setting and forgetting will be putting the kit in the storage while waiting for your motor to be repaired.

Bill, your input is really appreciated and you made good points.

So let's take a look then at the costs between the two kits FM vs BEGI. For discussion purposes, this will be for the cost of the kit only, the whole system will include my purchase of (MS PNP for ECU, AEM Wideband and Truboost for tuning and boost control, and some type of injectors for fuel)

I've priced out a FMII (no electronics) with the hardline upgrade option, Iconel studs option and dual pod option. This comes out to around $3,275 + shipping.

To compare, I've selected the Begi S1 kit with compariable mild steel (not stainless steel), upgraded to the Garrett GT2560 turbo to match FM, and upgraded to dual pod option. This comes out to around $3,177 + shipping.

With that said above, it looks as though there is only a $98 difference between the two kits only due to the fact that I needed to make some upgrades on the FMII kit (hardlines, studs, etc.) to meet the standards of the Begi kit. With that $98 difference, I could add cermic coating option to the Begi S1 kit.

Get the TSE studs if you're going to buy anything.

Is the car going to see hard track use, or be mostly a street/autox car? If the latter, then the TSE stud kit is probably overkill.

--Ian

GO FM... I went BEGI and had issues. If I was starting over, I would have went FM.

I'd vote FM...I have my reasons. After having had their products on my car for 5+ years, I'd go with them if I had to do it all over again and not think twice about it.

I never had Begi, but have had 2 FM kits and they were simple and built to last.

Been running my begi kit since i bought my car almost 3 years ago.

My begi kit (s3) has been fine for the past 4 years, the steel m10 mani to turbo studs stretched though. If you occasionally track the car or drive hard, get inco studs.

Hello All,

Thank you for your input. I ended up placing an order with Brandon this morning

FMII No Electronics Kit
Hardline oil/coolant line upgrade
Iconol studs and locks upgrade
Full A-pillar Dual gauge pod upgrade
AEM UEGO Wideband

I have already ordered:

MS DIYPNP
Deatschwerks 600cc Injectors
Exedy Stage 1 Clutch

All I need to order is AEM Truboost gauge/controller

Then further down the line, I'm going to upgrade my radiator and exhaust (currently stock other than Racing Beat muffler)

That, sir, is going to be one great miata.

U sure FMs kit doesnt come with a boost gauge? Thought it did.

It does contain a boost gauge, but I told them to delete it because I'm going to get the gauge/controller all in one.

You making this into rocket science? Boost gauges can be the regular old mechanical gauges and theres no benefit to going with an electric one for 4 times the cost, actually just the opposite, theres less shit to fail for the mechanical gauges. U dont need a controller for those. Just a vacuum line which you will have going to the MS unit. The gauge that comes with the fm kit is the mechanical kind.

So there is no need for a boost controller at all with the kit?

$70 vs a $300 boost controller/gauge

Exactly. Nope call them up to confirm its a mechanical boost gauge and tell them to toss it back in the box.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1373320199

All theres to it... on the back there is a hard vacuum line that you route to the intake manifold.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...l/DSCF0052.jpg

you can get an auto(crap)meter boost gauge for like 30-40 used
you can get an mbc for like 20 or a bcs for like 40
so like 60-80 total

I'll just get the boost gauge from the FM kit. Less wiring and hassle.

I guess my only concern, and why I was going to get the truboost is how good is the kit itself able to limit boost? Or will that actually be able to be controlled by the MS?

Doesnt the FM turbo have internal wastegate?

Yes they have an internal wastegate

boost cut is controlled by ms
as for boost control, you can just use the wastegate like many here do, but that's not a great method of doing it and you'd be leaving spool and torque on the table. mbc or bcs is king

BCS? Don't know what that means, I'm assuming 'Boost Control System'? haha

And that is the reason why I didn't get the Flyin Miata boost gauge in the kit and why I was going with the Truboost. It acts as a boost controller AND will be my gauge.