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Old 07-06-2013, 12:15 AM   #21
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Injectors (what size do I need?)
RX8 425cc.
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Old 07-06-2013, 01:26 AM   #22
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So I'm going to end up going with a BEGI kit I believe.

I've priced the two FMII without electronics and the BEGI kit has a much more "complete" kit from the start (hardline oil/water lines, ceramic coatings, etc.) vs the FMII where those are options necessary to pay extra.
A couple of things that are not necessarily obvious from the vendor descriptions of the two kits:

1) BEGI kits have a reputation for frequently requiring a fair bit of work with a grinder to get them to actually fit. This is substantially less true of the more recent FM kits.

2) There's a reason that the China turbo that comes with the Shanghai kits is $600 cheaper than a real Garrett turbo. It may bolt up to the same flanges, but it won't spool the same as a real one. Turbine blade design is not simple.

--Ian
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Old 07-06-2013, 02:24 AM   #23
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cool story bro
it won't work in CA
I dont understand how it says its carb (California air regulatory board) legal, but isn't legal in CA, not saying your wrong, just confused.
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Old 07-06-2013, 02:38 AM   #24
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I dont understand how it says its carb (California air regulatory board) legal, but isn't legal in CA, not saying your wrong, just confused.
BEGI's 99 CARB EO was done with a bunch of hardware that's no longer available. It used the Link Piggy, and the EO text actually calls for aux injectors installed in the throttle body. A standalone MSPNP won't pass, because it won't give out the OBD2 codes. A dual-mode MS could be made to work, but is harder to set up.

The kit also used a different manifold that mounted the turbo further forwards so that there was room to mount the CA-emissions 99 pre-cat in the downpipe, a few inches below the turbo. Those manifolds are no longer available.

So it's probably possible to make a 1999 (not 2000 or any later NB) pass CA smog with a BEGI kit if it was a non-CA emissions car (ie, one without a pre-cat) that was brought into California as a used car, is hooked up with a dual-mode MS for control, and you get a tech who doesn't read the details of the EO all that closely.

--Ian
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Old 07-06-2013, 02:49 AM   #25
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Things may have changed.

I found a FM kit however it is a kit for a 1.8 NA. My question is this kit should fit an NB yes? If not, the only potential parts I can see that wouldn't fit is the manifold and potentially the stainless lines aren't long enough in comparing NA vs NB?
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Old 07-06-2013, 04:09 AM   #26
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Things may have changed.

I found a FM kit however it is a kit for a 1.8 NA. My question is this kit should fit an NB yes? If not, the only potential parts I can see that wouldn't fit is the manifold and potentially the stainless lines aren't long enough in comparing NA vs NB?
The exhaust manifold should fit the head, but the EGR might be different. The intercooler mounting hardware might be different too. The airbox won't fit, and the there might be some differences in the intercooler pipes/etc. The ECUs are also different.

If your goal in buying an FM kit is to get the plug-and-play ease of installation for which FM is known, then buying a used kit that's the wrong year is not the right way to go about it.

--Ian
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Old 07-06-2013, 04:27 AM   #27
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I have a DIYPNP on its way so the ECU is taken care of.

a FM without electronics is still basically $3k and then you need to grab injectors and wideband. I'd also want hard oil/water lines, so that is an additional $189 option. The BEGi Shanghai S1 kit is basically $2,500 + the items noted above and it comes ceramic coated and stainless steel lines standard.

The differences between the kits is about $600

This used kit I'm looking at would cost $1500 and has the following. The manifold is cracked, so I'd have to buy a new one, that's $350ish. If I need to buy a new intake and IC, I'm assuming the cost would still be below $3000

-Garret GT2560R Turbo
-FM manifold
-FM Downpipe
-Tial 38mm external wastegate
-Braided stainless oil supply line
-Drill bit, thread tap, and hose barb for oil return
-K&N air filter
-upgraded silicon hose connectors
-upgraded stainless steel T-clamps
-intercooler with hard pipes
-check valve for EVAP
-Inline adapter ports for boost gauge/MAP sensor
-Mitsubishi OEM blowoff valve with K&N
-RC 550 injectors with ballast resistors
-Original installation instruction books
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Old 07-06-2013, 05:28 AM   #28
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So you would suggest the VooDoo II kit over the NB200? I know that everyone hates anything that doesn't have a stand alone ECU, but again, for the time being I don't need anything special. I just want to slap the kit on, enjoy it, and when it comes time to upgrade, I can shell out the extra money needed to do that instead of doing it upfront now.
lol no, they both use stock injectors... Injectors that max out at 6psi assuming you want to keep bellow 12afr.

Last edited by triple88a; 07-06-2013 at 05:41 AM.
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Old 07-06-2013, 12:54 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by HardHitter View Post
I
a FM without electronics is still basically $3k and then you need to grab injectors and wideband. I'd also want hard oil/water lines, so that is an additional $189 option. The BEGi Shanghai S1 kit is basically $2,500 + the items noted above and it comes ceramic coated and stainless steel lines standard.

The differences between the kits is about $600

This used kit I'm looking at would cost $1500 and has the following. The manifold is cracked, so I'd have to buy a new one, that's $350ish. If I need to buy a new intake and IC, I'm assuming the cost would still be below $3000

-Garret GT2560R Turbo
-FM manifold
-FM Downpipe
-Tial 38mm external wastegate
-Braided stainless oil supply line
-Drill bit, thread tap, and hose barb for oil return
-K&N air filter
-upgraded silicon hose connectors
-upgraded stainless steel T-clamps
-intercooler with hard pipes
-check valve for EVAP
-Inline adapter ports for boost gauge/MAP sensor
-Mitsubishi OEM blowoff valve with K&N
-RC 550 injectors with ballast resistors
-Original installation instruction books
If it's an FM kit that uses an external wastegate, that sounds like an old FM3. These kits were notorious for very-hard-to-access nuts on the external WG flanges, which were also prone to coming loose at the slightest provocation. There's a reason they only made them for a couple years. Perhaps modern inconel studs would fix the coming loose problem -- I don't know if anyone's tested it.

If the manifold is cracked on that kit to the point that it can't be repaired, then you're screwed. Nobody makes new FM3 manifolds, so there's no way to hook up that EWG. You're buying a turbo (checked for shaft play in it?), an intercooler (older, less-efficient, top-to-bottom flow design), some pipes, some injectors (that probably need to be sent out to be cleaned and flow checked), and miscellaneous bits of hardware. The downpipe is useless because it's set up for EWG, not IWG, and you don't have anywhere to attach that EWG on the manifold end. It could probably be modified for IWG use, but that's more money unless you're skilled with a welder.

The newer FM2R kits that use an EWG use the newer Garrett turbine exhaust housings with V-band EWG fittings built in, rather than a manifold EWG flange.

You need to decide what your primary requirement is -- ease of installation and lack of long-term problems (like you mentioned in the thread subject) or low cost, because you're not going to get both. If it's the former, then I'd recommend buying a new FM kit of some description. If it's the latter, then trolling the classifieds for used parts will get you there for a third to a half the cost, but at 2-3x the time and effort required.

--Ian
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Old 07-06-2013, 01:15 PM   #30
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Thank you cordus for breaking down the details o why begi carb kit doesn't work in CA.

I knew there was something (we discussed long ago), but wasn't sure of the details.
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Old 07-06-2013, 03:04 PM   #31
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Kinda sucks, I was hoping to keep it carb legal, but I that ain't happenin.
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Old 07-06-2013, 04:06 PM   #32
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Perhaps buy a knn intake and move the carb sticker ot the turbo?
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Old 07-06-2013, 06:01 PM   #33
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I wonder if that would work...
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Old 07-07-2013, 02:38 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by gearhead_318 View Post
I wonder if that would work...
Doubtful, the tech would really have to be an idiot to miss that. If they look up the EO in the computer and it says "turbo kit" they're not going to know exactly what shipped with the FM2. If it says "intake air filter", well, that's pretty obvious that it doesn't include a new exhaust manifold and turbo.

For an NB you still need to make it talk OBD2 to the smog computer, anyway. MS2s don't do that.

--Ian
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Old 07-07-2013, 02:55 AM   #35
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Still can't decide which kit I want to go with.

The Begi Shanghai S1 is about $500-$600 cheaper and has more standard features than the FMII does (ceramic coating, stainless steel lines, larger intercooler, etc) but I've heard the BEGI fitment is "eh"

If I went with the FMII it would be an extra $500-$600 without the options that come standard with the Begi Shanghai S1
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Old 07-07-2013, 04:00 AM   #36
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If I went with the FMII it would be an extra $500-$600 without the options that come standard with the Begi Shanghai S1
As I said above, most of that $600 is in the form of a real Garrett turbo.

https://www.miataturbo.net/dynos-tim...t-2560r-55207/

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Old 07-07-2013, 04:44 AM   #37
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My begi kit was a little low on clearance here and there but not impossible. If you want easy installation look for a vband setup.
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Old 07-07-2013, 05:15 AM   #38
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Still can't decide which kit I want to go with.

The Begi Shanghai S1 is about $500-$600 cheaper and has more standard features than the FMII does (ceramic coating, stainless steel lines, larger intercooler, etc) but I've heard the BEGI fitment is "eh"

If I went with the FMII it would be an extra $500-$600 without the options that come standard with the Begi Shanghai S1
I think I'm in more or less the same boat as you in terms of the outcome I want, but I'm getting pretty confused trying to follow this.

I thought you wanted a +/- 200 whp kit. The FMII-without-electronics or the BEGi S1 will do this easily, although it may have to work a bit harder with the Shanghai S1 because of the less efficient churbo. Both have straight forward upgrade paths to as much power as your engine can handle (stock or built).

If you look at the BEGi S1 kit with the Garrett turbo it is slightly more expensive than the FM II without electronics, so the savings in the Shanghai S1 kit are from the cheaper turbo. FM doesn't sell churbo kits, but you can buy everything else in the FMII kit from them so you could put together an FM II with a churbo if you wanted, which would be hundreds cheaper than the FM II kit with a Garrett turbo. You have to decide whether the significantly lower cost of a churbo offsets the decrease in performance and reliability compared to the Garrett turbos. Many people find that acceptable. But trying to decide whether a ceramic coated churbo and hard oil lines, etc offsets a Garrett and silicon oil lines, etc just throws in too many variables. It's not that this is comparing apples to oranges -- it ends up as trying to compare two different baskets of fruit.

Some of the things included with the BEGi S1 kit may not be of much value to you unless you push the power well past 200whp. According to BEGi, when they made the NB200 kit they took "the existing [Shanghai] S1 turbo system and simplified it to make a complete kit that is easy to install." What they dropped from the S1 kit were things they didn't think necessary for a low (8-10 psi) boost, 200 whp kit. Some of the things you list as advantages for the BEGi S1 are those things BEGi dropped from the NB200. For example, according to BEGi, with low boost systems "the ceramic coating is mainly for looks. It will not show surface rust like the standard black painted manifolds. The ceramic coating will have a small benefit for heat reduction, but it is not very significant on this application" -- which is why it is optional on the NB200 kit.

BTW, according to Corky Bell, BEGi is moving to using external wastegates (now on the NB200) with all its kits, and if I understood him correctly in the NB200 discussion he indicated it would be better to upgrade an NB200 (with bigger injectors, MegaSquirt, etc) if you wanted more than 200whp than to buy one of their other current kits (without external wastegates) already set for higher power.

The BEGi and FM kits each have advantages and disadvantages (although there will be disagreement about what those are!), but on balance are pretty equal. There is no clear winner. You need to determine your priorities and either choose the pre-fab kit that comes closest to matching them or take the DIY route and put together a system of your individually chosen components.



Bill
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Old 07-07-2013, 05:27 AM   #39
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The only thing i like about the nb200 kit is the external wastegate... the 12.5-13afr at 9psi of boost on the other hand... no thank you. The only setting and forgetting will be putting the kit in the storage while waiting for your motor to be repaired.
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Old 07-07-2013, 11:23 AM   #40
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I think I'm in more or less the same boat as you in terms of the outcome I want, but I'm getting pretty confused trying to follow this.

I thought you wanted a +/- 200 whp kit. The FMII-without-electronics or the BEGi S1 will do this easily, although it may have to work a bit harder with the Shanghai S1 because of the less efficient churbo. Both have straight forward upgrade paths to as much power as your engine can handle (stock or built).

If you look at the BEGi S1 kit with the Garrett turbo it is slightly more expensive than the FM II without electronics, so the savings in the Shanghai S1 kit are from the cheaper turbo. FM doesn't sell churbo kits, but you can buy everything else in the FMII kit from them so you could put together an FM II with a churbo if you wanted, which would be hundreds cheaper than the FM II kit with a Garrett turbo. You have to decide whether the significantly lower cost of a churbo offsets the decrease in performance and reliability compared to the Garrett turbos. Many people find that acceptable. But trying to decide whether a ceramic coated churbo and hard oil lines, etc offsets a Garrett and silicon oil lines, etc just throws in too many variables. It's not that this is comparing apples to oranges -- it ends up as trying to compare two different baskets of fruit.

Some of the things included with the BEGi S1 kit may not be of much value to you unless you push the power well past 200whp. According to BEGi, when they made the NB200 kit they took "the existing [Shanghai] S1 turbo system and simplified it to make a complete kit that is easy to install." What they dropped from the S1 kit were things they didn't think necessary for a low (8-10 psi) boost, 200 whp kit. Some of the things you list as advantages for the BEGi S1 are those things BEGi dropped from the NB200. For example, according to BEGi, with low boost systems "the ceramic coating is mainly for looks. It will not show surface rust like the standard black painted manifolds. The ceramic coating will have a small benefit for heat reduction, but it is not very significant on this application" -- which is why it is optional on the NB200 kit.

BTW, according to Corky Bell, BEGi is moving to using external wastegates (now on the NB200) with all its kits, and if I understood him correctly in the NB200 discussion he indicated it would be better to upgrade an NB200 (with bigger injectors, MegaSquirt, etc) if you wanted more than 200whp than to buy one of their other current kits (without external wastegates) already set for higher power.

The BEGi and FM kits each have advantages and disadvantages (although there will be disagreement about what those are!), but on balance are pretty equal. There is no clear winner. You need to determine your priorities and either choose the pre-fab kit that comes closest to matching them or take the DIY route and put together a system of your individually chosen components.



Bill
Bill, your input is really appreciated and you made good points.

So let's take a look then at the costs between the two kits FM vs BEGI. For discussion purposes, this will be for the cost of the kit only, the whole system will include my purchase of (MS PNP for ECU, AEM Wideband and Truboost for tuning and boost control, and some type of injectors for fuel)

I've priced out a FMII (no electronics) with the hardline upgrade option, Iconel studs option and dual pod option. This comes out to around $3,275 + shipping.

To compare, I've selected the Begi S1 kit with compariable mild steel (not stainless steel), upgraded to the Garrett GT2560 turbo to match FM, and upgraded to dual pod option. This comes out to around $3,177 + shipping.

With that said above, it looks as though there is only a $98 difference between the two kits only due to the fact that I needed to make some upgrades on the FMII kit (hardlines, studs, etc.) to meet the standards of the Begi kit. With that $98 difference, I could add cermic coating option to the Begi S1 kit.
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