FM vodoo II on a 1.6 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Prefabbed Turbo Kits A place to discuss prefabricated turbo kits on the market
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 06-18-2015, 10:51 AM   #1
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Detroit
Posts: 4
Total Cats: 0
Default FM vodoo II on a 1.6

Hey guys new to the forum, but by no means new to miatas. I haven't counted recently but my guesses are that between my dad and myself we've had close to 30 miatas in 4 years...it's a sickness. Reason for my post is that despite having all of these cars, neither of us have tinkered with a boosted one. I have been itching to get a little more power out of my 92 and started doing a little research. I have come across two systems that I really like, the 1.6 kraftwerks rotrex or the flying miata Vodoo II. If I chose to go with the FM kit a set of 1.8 injectors would be grabbed off a parts motor in my garage, cleaned in an ultra sonic tank at school, flow tested to make sure there operating correctly and installed. My power goals are 180-200whp, everyone's going to say I'll get bored of that after a while. I might, but worse case I can hop in my old mans rt10 for a little scare. I have read that the FM kit will present some potential flaws while being tracked, altough the car won't be a purpose built track car, it will see plenty of autox's, maybe an event out at Gingerman. Boost levels would be kept around 9psi with the FM kit, shooting for 185rwhp through a 2.5" piping and a burns race muffler. Rotrex would be kept pretty base, just a megasquirt added with a wide band for tune-ability, shooting for around 200 with a racing beat header and 2.25".

And now for a little info about the car it'll be going on. 115K on her, original un- opened 1.6
92 base miata, crank windows, No PS or AC, no cruise
upgraded clutch, not sure what exactly it is but it's much stiffer than any miata clutch I have ever felt but not quite viper clutch stiff.
Type 1 Torsen diff
spring rates 450 front, 325 rear
Will be adding a koyo spec miata radiator shortly

The question, for around the same money more or less, what would you guys choose. My only requirement is that reliability is kept somewhat high, I do own a tow vehicle with a trailer that tows our DP miata around, but would prefer this thing to make it around under it's own power.
RacerX26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2015, 11:33 AM   #2
mkturbo.com
iTrader: (24)
 
shuiend's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 13,775
Total Cats: 1,106
Default

Swap in a 1.8 to start with.
Install a MS and Wideband.
Install bigger injectors, stock 1.8 injectors are not big enough.
Install turbo setup.
Install Inconel studs.
PROFIT!
shuiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2015, 11:48 AM   #3
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Detroit
Posts: 4
Total Cats: 0
Default

Don't tempt me with the 1.8 swap, I already have a 1.8 59K mile motor laying around that was supposed to be saved as a spare motor for the DP race car. What's wrong with the 1.6? It's a longnose so no real issues there
RacerX26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2015, 12:10 PM   #4
mkturbo.com
iTrader: (24)
 
shuiend's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 13,775
Total Cats: 1,106
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerX26 View Post
Don't tempt me with the 1.8 swap, I already have a 1.8 59K mile motor laying around that was supposed to be saved as a spare motor for the DP race car. What's wrong with the 1.6? It's a longnose so no real issues there
It makes no torque. Swap in the 1.8. Long term it is worth the small expense up front.
shuiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2015, 12:53 PM   #5
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,186
Total Cats: 2,582
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerX26 View Post
What's wrong with the 1.6?
everything
Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerX26 View Post
I already have a 1.8 59K mile motor laying around that was supposed to be saved as a spare motor for the DP race car.
In this case you would literally have to be insane not to
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2015, 03:06 PM   #6
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Detroit
Posts: 4
Total Cats: 0
Default

I probably should have given a little more info about the 1.8 then. It's out of a 97, 59K, compression numbers were all within 5psi of each other.
RacerX26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2015, 10:25 PM   #7
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Kensington, MD
Posts: 324
Total Cats: -26
Default

You say that like you expect it to change anyone's mind.
huesmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2015, 12:04 AM   #8
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,318
Total Cats: 1,916
Default

I keep starting to respond to this thread and then stopping myself.

The B6 isn't a horrible motor. It's vastly superior to the the side-valve D10 engine used in 1950s era Datsun pickup trucks, for instance.

The BP ('94-'97) is a slightly better motor, and the later ('99-'05) variants are actually starting to cross into the realm of what could be described as "good."

If you turbo the 1.6 motor, the car will be fast. You'll no longer be out-paced by minivans on the freeway on-ramp, and will be able to hold your own against a stock first-gen Boxster.

It will be less fast (and less pleasant to drive off-boost) than if you'd used the 1.8, and if you grenade the engine or otherwise decide at some point to swap it, you'll have to buy a new manifold and give up whatever other work you've done on the 1.6.

That's really what it boils down to. Spend a little now, or slightly more later.
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2015, 03:39 AM   #9
Elite Member
 
codrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,877
Total Cats: 344
Default

The big reason not to spend any money on the 1.6 is that there's nothing that makes it better than a 1.8 other than the fact that you might already own one, a couple hundred things that make it worse (if a cc can be said to be a "thing" at least), and it doesn't really cost all that much to upgrade it now.

It's a cliche, but "there's no replacement for displacement". Every performance mod that can be made to a 1.6 can be made to a 1.8, and will net at least 10% more power doing it to the 1.8. Worse, any of those mods that bolt to the sides of the motor can't be transplanted, so once you've spent money on parts for a 1.6 you can't really turn around and upgrade to a 1.8 later without spending that money again on 1.8 parts.

--Ian
codrus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2015, 08:49 AM   #10
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Detroit
Posts: 4
Total Cats: 0
Default

Alright guys so here's another question, before I drop in the 1.8 I have laying around, I would perform the usual water pump and gates racing timing belt, and cam seals. My thought is pop the head off really quick and pitch the stock head bolts in favor of some ARP heads studs. Then for the turbo use the FM manifold, gt2560R, inconel studs, FM intercooler piping and intercooler , rc500cc injectors, mega squirt with wide band, begi 2.5" turbo racer exhaust. If anybody see's some obvious failures in the parts list please let me know.
RacerX26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2015, 09:05 AM   #11
mkturbo.com
iTrader: (24)
 
shuiend's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 13,775
Total Cats: 1,106
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerX26 View Post
Alright guys so here's another question, before I drop in the 1.8 I have laying around, I would perform the usual water pump and gates racing timing belt, and cam seals. My thought is pop the head off really quick and pitch the stock head bolts in favor of some ARP heads studs. Then for the turbo use the FM manifold, gt2560R, inconel studs, FM intercooler piping and intercooler , rc500cc injectors, mega squirt with wide band, begi 2.5" turbo racer exhaust. If anybody see's some obvious failures in the parts list please let me know.
There is absolutely no reason to switch to ARP head studs on a stock motor. Leave the head alone. Do timing belt and water pump along with seals. Get flow force injectors instead of rc500's, do the MS and wideband before any turbo stuff. Put in an FM1 clutch when you swap motors. Go with a 3" exhaust over 2.5".
shuiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2015, 10:28 AM   #12
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,318
Total Cats: 1,916
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
There is absolutely no reason to switch to ARP head studs on a stock motor. Leave the head alone. Do timing belt and water pump along with seals.
^ Everything he said.
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2015, 03:19 PM   #13
Elite Member
 
codrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,877
Total Cats: 344
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
There is absolutely no reason to switch to ARP head studs on a stock motor. Leave the head alone. Do timing belt and water pump along with seals. Get flow force injectors instead of rc500's, do the MS and wideband before any turbo stuff. Put in an FM1 clutch when you swap motors. Go with a 3" exhaust over 2.5".
If you had the head off for some other reason and didn't want to reuse the head bolts, then sure, putting in ARP studs makes sense, but you certainly don't want to take it off just to change them.

As for injectors, I'd buy ID1000s, that way you'll never need to buy them again.

--Ian
codrus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2015, 03:28 PM   #14
mkturbo.com
iTrader: (24)
 
shuiend's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 13,775
Total Cats: 1,106
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by codrus View Post
If you had the head off for some other reason and didn't want to reuse the head bolts, then sure, putting in ARP studs makes sense, but you certainly don't want to take it off just to change them.

As for injectors, I'd buy ID1000s, that way you'll never need to buy them again.

--Ian
Only reason I don't recommend the ID1000's is most people get upset at the price. They are worth every penny, but most people are cheap. The new flow force injectors from Nigelt work just as good, just don't have as much head room.
shuiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2015, 03:45 PM   #15
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,186
Total Cats: 2,582
Default

When you say "just as good", is that an assumption?

I have nothing but respect for nigelt, so this is in no way a criticism, but has someone done a properly documented comparo to make claims like this?

Because if not, then we can all just claim that ALL ev14 injectors are just as good as ID, because they're all bosch injectors.

I've tuned five-o's which are also bosch ev14 injectors, and while they were way better than ev6/1/etc they were still not ID quality. Likely not noticeable on a mediocre tune or a ms1/2/etc, but when you're dialing in that last 10% to perfection, you start to see the difference.

Again, just curious (not criticizing flow force injectors)
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2015, 04:04 PM   #16
mkturbo.com
iTrader: (24)
 
shuiend's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 13,775
Total Cats: 1,106
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
When you say "just as good", is that an assumption?

I have nothing but respect for nigelt, so this is in no way a criticism, but has someone done a properly documented comparo to make claims like this?

Because if not, then we can all just claim that ALL ev14 injectors are just as good as ID, because they're all bosch injectors.

I've tuned five-o's which are also bosch ev14 injectors, and while they were way better than ev6/1/etc they were still not ID quality. Likely not noticeable on a mediocre tune or a ms1/2/etc, but when you're dialing in that last 10% to perfection, you start to see the difference.

Again, just curious (not criticizing flow force injectors)
I run the GT500(not from nigelt, but same injectors he uses) injectors in my 97 mkturbo car with a MS3x, I run ID1000's in my 94 track car with the same MS3x. I have in the past used about every other injector type that is reasonably PNP on a miata. Tuning on the street for both ID and GT500 has been nearly identical with the results I have seen. I can get the same idle results and everything else is pretty close. The ID might be "slightly" better overall, but not worth the $200 premium if you are on a stock motor or don't need the added head room.
shuiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2015, 05:27 PM   #17
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,318
Total Cats: 1,916
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
When you say "just as good", is that an assumption?
Andrew speaks highly of them:

https://www.miataturbo.net/engine-pe...ckspeed-84275/
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2015, 05:52 PM   #18
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,186
Total Cats: 2,582
Default

Andrew sells them. LOL. And again, just opinion, but stated almost as a FACT. (And he even says IMO so I find nothing wrong with his statement)
Like I said, nothing against either of them, and I'm not about to say these injectors are bad or much worse than ID, but we're just taking random opinions (nothing wrong with that) and stating them as fact (that's the part I don't like). If he had said "many consider to be as....." I'd probably not even have said anything.

And Lars, that's cool but again, I'd want to know how good your tune is, and how good the logs look for both injectors.

I've had many members check out my car and my tune, and most said it was amazing without a single fault, and yet I find many issues with it. I've driven many people's cars that consider them running perfect and well tuned, which made me twitch in the face from being stunned and frustrated.

I've voiced a similar question/challenge in the mustang injector thread, and have still yet to see any data. Some say "they're great". Some say "they're ok". No one really provided proof. And I'm just too lazy to test them, I just run ID and never look back

Last edited by 18psi; 06-19-2015 at 06:05 PM.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2015, 05:54 PM   #19
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,186
Total Cats: 2,582
Default

People said the same about chinachargers until we all started to compare logs/plots/etc. And then we realize that "just as good" meant "it makes boost, therefore it's just as good as a garrett"

......sorry for off topic posts OP
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2015, 06:26 PM   #20
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,363
Total Cats: 1,325
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
When you say "just as good", is that an assumption?

I have nothing but respect for nigelt, so this is in no way a criticism, but has someone done a properly documented comparo to make claims like this?

Because if not, then we can all just claim that ALL ev14 injectors are just as good as ID, because they're all bosch injectors.
That's a silly claim. The reason why ID injectors work better than a random set of four 1000cc EV14s purchased from the internet is the same reason why a set of FF610s work better than a set of random GT500 injectors purchased from the internet. Nigel/Flow Force uses his time and capital to purchase the injectors in bulk lots, flow-test every single one of them, and bundle them into sets that flow the same (+/-1%) amount of fuel at the kind of pulsewidths an engine needs at idle/low speed.

Buy a set of either one (GT500 injectors or 1000s) from the internet, and you'll get a set that's anywhere between 8% and 14% out of balance at 2ms. Think they'll idle right?
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Need help - Stock Balancer and Fastforward overlay pulleys Frank_and_Beans Supercharger Discussion 13 09-12-2016 09:17 PM
Going back to stock. Need some 1.6 parts. Trent WTB 2 10-01-2015 01:15 PM
Charlotte - 1.6 ECU/Injectors, '94 R Pacakage Stuff Dustin Miata parts for sale/trade 4 09-23-2015 11:34 PM
1.6 clutch/flywheel on 1.8/6spd concealer404 Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 8 09-17-2015 01:04 PM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:23 PM.