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Old 01-25-2009, 02:22 PM   #1
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Default Stock Greddy AFRs

Hello.

I've recently got myself a greddy kit sorted out. Its rather fun to have that extra power, but I'm a bit concerned about my AFR readings.

I'm running the stock greddy kit, with vortec 12:1 AFPR, standard greddy filter, stock 1.6 injectors, stock fuel pump, a cheap mechanical boost gauge and an lc-1 wideband o2 kit. Stock exhaust and greddy downpipe.

I've got the lc-1 set up and calibrated, checked the gauge read out against the datalogging read out and its the same, holding a nice 14.5 - 14.8 AFR at idle of 800/850 rpm. So I'm pretty sure the lc-1 is reading accuratley.

Out of the box the waste gate on my td-04 was held open, the rod was set so long, so I tightened it down till it was just about holding shut.

If I go WOT from 2k rpm in 4th I'm getting mid 14s AFR, then as 2.5/3k comes up I start to build boost, and the begins to drop. By the time my gauge is reading 4psi its dropped to mid 12s. This holds from around 3k till 3.5k, then the turbo continues to build a bit more presure, up closer to the 5.5psi gate setting. As this happens my AFRs lean out to mid/high 13s. Once I get past 4k rpm, the boost starts dropping back to more like 4/3psi, and the AFR starts dropping hitting high 12s by 5k and high 11s by 6k. By the time I'm near the redline it only looks to be making a couple of psi.

Doing some runs at less than WOT, generating around 4psi at 4k rpm (the peak boost position from WOT run) and I'm running mid to high 12s.

For all these runs the air temperature was 30-38 F.

I just wanted to run it past you guys, to make sure I'm thinknig along the right lines...

I'm presuming the issues with leaning out WOT near 4k is that I'm generating too much presure for my fueling. And that a Walbro fuel pump would allow my APFR to feed me more fuel, and therefore keep my AFRs safer?

My gauge is probably a bit inaccurate, as the stock injector and fuel pump should be good for 5psi? and they appear to lean out at 4 or so?

Getting an MBC would help my boost level be more consistant?

How unsafe is it to be running AFRs of mid 13s if I'm only running sub 5psi? I know 12.5 is the standard safe rule, but I know thats takes into account much higher boost levels than I'm running. If I wind the waste gate out further than it currently is ( to try to drop pressure I'm generating at 4k) I seem to just have worse spooling time and loose even more boost at the top end.

I know the AFPR is a band aid, so I'm hoping to be able to have the car running safely for the short term while I save my money for proper fueling control.

Thank you for reading that confusing essay.

p.s. These readings were on some test runs, whilst I'm still concerned/unsure about what's safe and isn't I shall just keep out of boost.

Last edited by Steve-A; 01-25-2009 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 01-25-2009, 03:01 PM   #2
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sounds like a ecu problem. a piggyback will help or going with a full standalone if you plan on doing anymore upgrades
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Old 01-25-2009, 03:59 PM   #3
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You didn't mention timing control so I'm assuming you have none. Bumping back your timing is one of the first thinsg you do with a GReddy kit if you don't have timing control. A Walbro will help with the lean condition at higher boost and help you run more boost if you so desire. It will do nothing for your lean tip in as you enter boost.

There are a lot of fixes you could do to make your band-aid set-up safer to produce more power, but if you are planning on switching to a standalone, I'd just bump back the timing, run the boost at the stock GReddy settings if you have to, and deal with the crappy low end and other power issues until you can tune it properly.

The Greddy wastegate is a POS. Do a search and you'll see that tightening down the rod is the least of your issues there.
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Old 01-25-2009, 05:38 PM   #4
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Timing wise, I'm running at 6 degrees BTDC with no control, as per the GReddy instructions.

Because the waste gates base pressure is 5.5psi, and thats running lean on me at the moment, if I loosen it any more to reduce the pressure Im making I've effectively tied the gate open and wont make any boost. So although the band-aid set-up is temporary I think I better sort a fuel pump out so I can atleast run safe with a small amount of boost for a while. I shan't be able to afford a standalone set-up for a few months yet.

I've read about the waste gate issues, and seeing as I don't want any more boost for the moment, I figured an MBC would be the way to go to help make gate a bit more reliable, rather than second spring and other mods people make.

Just out of curiosity, what other fixes could I do to improve my band-aid set-up? I know a bipes or similar to sort the timing would help.
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Old 01-25-2009, 05:40 PM   #5
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I'd get a 190HP walbro fuel pump in there. See where your AFR's are after that. As for more band-aids, don't. Save those penny's for a standalone MS setup.
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Old 01-25-2009, 05:47 PM   #6
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I've just had a scan around, I can find 255lhp pumps for my car but no 190hps in any UK shops. According to walbro.co.uk the 255s replaced the 190s ?

As for more band-aids, I shan't be fitting any, I DO want proper fueling control. I'm just intrigued
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Old 01-25-2009, 05:52 PM   #7
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Try to find a 190hp. The 255 is known to overwhelm the stock fuel pressure regulator, causing poor idle. The 190Hp is perfect if you can get one. There's a website called lightningmotorsports (i think) that sells them for 90-100 bucks. Dunno if they'll ship over there though.
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Old 01-25-2009, 06:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Just out of curiosity, what other fixes could I do to improve my band-aid set-up? I know a bipes or similar to sort the timing would help.
Bipes for timing control. These days, you can probably find an Emanage Blue for about the same price and handle both timing and injectors. An O2 clamp will handle lean tip in. Dump the FMU and go with a BEGi AFPR.
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Old 01-25-2009, 07:15 PM   #9
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If it doesn't knock, it's fine. You're not running much boost.
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Old 01-25-2009, 07:33 PM   #10
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Thats good to know I've read as much as I can about what AFRs are safe and I know 12.5 is optimum, but people say leaner is fine at low boost. I couldn't find out what 'low boost' meant, did it mean 4 psi or 1.

I'm still gonna pick up a fuel pump as its not a massive cost and much better for my pice of mind. Just trying to find somewhere with 190s rather than 255s in the UK, I'll phone some people tomorrow.

Thanks guys for replying and not just flaming the newb :P
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Old 01-25-2009, 08:13 PM   #11
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a noob would say

HELP IM LEANING OUT IN BOOST CAN YOU TELL ME WHATS WRONG
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Old 01-25-2009, 09:06 PM   #12
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I've played around with my greddy when it was stock quite a bit..
For what it's worth, (and this was with an intercooler but otherwise completely stock greddy kit as you have), according to what I recorded:
at 5 psi I saw 12.4-12.6
6 psi 12.7 - 12.8
7 psi 13.0 - 13.2
Same as you, this was on stock injectors and fuel pump. You should have enough fuel so this tells me that you have something in your fuel system that is not performing properly.

Now, about what you should get to make your setup safer while you save up for proper fuel control (engine management), I would caution you from spending much money because all the band-aid parts i.e. nicer FPR, Bipes, 02 clamp, etc. all become useless when you get a real fuel and timing control device. Best thing you can do right now is work on your intercooler and bov/recirculating valve setup as that will be needed no matter what if you want to go above 6 psi (unless you plan to use water injector instead but that's for a different thread).

Also, 'original' boost for the greddy kit is more like 4.5 psi not 5.5. I ran 6 psi on my completely original greddy kit for several months and you should
be able to do the same safely. Try replacing your fuel filter before the fuel pump to see if that solves your issues for now as once you go with an ecu and injectors you won't need a bigger pump until almost 14 psi.

-Ryan
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Old 01-26-2009, 05:35 AM   #13
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Thanks Ryan, that sort of info is really useful.

Too late to not buy the fuel pump, I found a shop in the UK with a 190lhp last night, but I was going to pick up a fuel filter aswell incase thats a bit blocked up. I'll try fitting just the fuel filter first, as I can always try sending the fuel pump back if its not needed in the end.

If I can run at 6psi over the summer on my current set-up (+fuel pump) then I'll be quite content. Intercooler/proper fueling solution were kinda equal on my list of things to do, but they will both have to wait till the autumn when I will have saved some cash for them and got some more no claims on my insurance!
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Old 01-26-2009, 08:01 AM   #14
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You should clean your injectors...
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:08 PM   #15
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Hi !
So, is it possible to run the stock greddy kit without adding any other part ?
How much HP can we achieve with that ?
I'm so interested about turbo-ing my 1.6 but I dont wan't so much HPs, and overall i'd like it to be reliable and "cheap" to begin with those high level mods.
Thx guys.
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Old 01-26-2009, 09:31 PM   #16
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chick have u even used the search engine? i will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you did. The stock greddy kit boosts you up 30 ponies and not much further. The reason being is that if you do not have a wideband you will not know if your engine is leaning out in boost which will make the engine knock and then go BOOM! i would say without adding anything 130-140 whp. But what you could do is save up a few more dolla bills and get the Begi-S kit. Its a much higher quality kit all the way around; turbo, exhaust manifold, downpipe. And its only 300-400$ more depending on where you planned on buying the greddy. The begi-S is 1800$ and gives you plenty of growing room
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Old 01-27-2009, 01:50 PM   #17
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After posting this message i've been goin'round the forum and seen the BEGI kit. So interesting one ! It has at least some parts for the fuel management and look much more serious than the greddy. A good buy for sure !
Anyone of you have bought it ? Goes well beeing "stock" ?
Thx.
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Old 01-28-2009, 11:26 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickchaser View Post
After posting this message i've been goin'round the forum and seen the BEGI kit. So interesting one ! It has at least some parts for the fuel management and look much more serious than the greddy. A good buy for sure !
Anyone of you have bought it ? Goes well beeing "stock" ?
Thx.
For the second ******* time, SEARCH.
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Old 01-28-2009, 12:18 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickchaser View Post
After posting this message i've been goin'round the forum and seen the BEGI kit. So interesting one ! It has at least some parts for the fuel management and look much more serious than the greddy. A good buy for sure !
Anyone of you have bought it ? Goes well beeing "stock" ?
Thx.
Is english your second language? You type like it is. Posting your location might give me a clue.

First, add your location to your information. Following proper protocol here is important to us.

Second, use the search function at the top of this page. If you continue to ask very simple and obvious questions on this forum without having done any of the work yourself, you will be mistreated by the members here. They don't condone laziness. This site is about helping each other with DIY not us do it for you.

There is a wealth of information on this site about the very questions you are asking and it is all at your disposal. Much of the information dates from last week back to several years ago, but is all good information. Many of the questions you will have will have answers in the stickys at the top of each sub-forum. Someone went to the trouble to add those threads as stickys so that the information would be easy for you to find. They knew you would come and ask those questions, so they gave you the answers. It was very thoughtful of them. Don't disregard the kindness.

If you do an exhaustive search and still have a looming question, do ask. But indicate what you have searched for and what you have found in your question so that all will know where you have already looked and that you did bother to look.

Good luck in your efforts.
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Old 01-29-2009, 06:44 PM   #20
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Hi sixshooter, english is my 4th language, that's why it must "sound" strange thx for the "respectful" answer, and sorry as I haven't used enough the search function... Thx for the other answers too. Ah, and i'm from Andorra, between France and Spain.

-> Albumleaf, thx for this interesting post, it will surely be helpful to improve
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