Turbo for MILD track days
09-01-2009, 09:20 AM
#24
you're an idiot at this point to put a turbo car on the track with studs and expect it to work. There is a solution, and its v-bands. There are many theories on ways to fix this, but no one can seem to do it. Its a $2000 mistake that I won't ever make again.
Considering that you've been on a track before, you should know that racecar dependability and affordability are further apart than conceptualized extra-universal red-shift, and increasing at an infinite rate. Stay NA if you don't have the money to address every system in the car. If I had to do it all over again, I'd have a 300whp daily driver miata, and a gutted, caged, 2500rpm idling/cammed/$5k suspension NA racecar. My turbo car is too nice to treat like a filthy *****.
Edit: I think I had a lot more fun at the track in my car with 94whp because every corner was a fight, I couldn't really hurt the car, and it was really challenging to run mid-pack at the Subaru events. I haven't done a mixed track day yet, but in a 300whp car you suddenly become the target, you're watched and criticized, and there are no more excuses. Sometimes I wish I could go back 2-years ago when I worked and drove my car at the track in Oklahoma for 60-hours of seat time in just a few months. Now, its a multi-national event to get the car on the track where I find myself working on the car at 3AM so I can sleep between sessions all day and tell myself "this is what you spent $20k for; its fun, and you like it!!!" Look at where I am right now. I get my turbo kit 9-days before my favorite track event of the year and I have to get it installed, pay someone to do fab work, fix the oil cooler, make brake ducts for the bumper that will be temporary because my new bumper isn't ready yet, order spare pads, get the car on the dyno with the new parts, and hope and pray that I make it home. 2-years ago all I had to do was put a key in the car and drive it to the track, then drive it home.
Considering that you've been on a track before, you should know that racecar dependability and affordability are further apart than conceptualized extra-universal red-shift, and increasing at an infinite rate. Stay NA if you don't have the money to address every system in the car. If I had to do it all over again, I'd have a 300whp daily driver miata, and a gutted, caged, 2500rpm idling/cammed/$5k suspension NA racecar. My turbo car is too nice to treat like a filthy *****.
Edit: I think I had a lot more fun at the track in my car with 94whp because every corner was a fight, I couldn't really hurt the car, and it was really challenging to run mid-pack at the Subaru events. I haven't done a mixed track day yet, but in a 300whp car you suddenly become the target, you're watched and criticized, and there are no more excuses. Sometimes I wish I could go back 2-years ago when I worked and drove my car at the track in Oklahoma for 60-hours of seat time in just a few months. Now, its a multi-national event to get the car on the track where I find myself working on the car at 3AM so I can sleep between sessions all day and tell myself "this is what you spent $20k for; its fun, and you like it!!!" Look at where I am right now. I get my turbo kit 9-days before my favorite track event of the year and I have to get it installed, pay someone to do fab work, fix the oil cooler, make brake ducts for the bumper that will be temporary because my new bumper isn't ready yet, order spare pads, get the car on the dyno with the new parts, and hope and pray that I make it home. 2-years ago all I had to do was put a key in the car and drive it to the track, then drive it home.
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09-01-2009, 01:44 PM
#27
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First of all, a 180-200whp Miata isnt a slight increase. Its pretty serious already. But all things aside, the basic rule is:
Modifying a car leads to more tool time.
That aside, you could do a 5-6psi intercooled turbo setup to work up your skills and have less (not none) heating issues. Studs are always an issue, however - my welded 304 magic stainless studs a still on and zero leaks.
OEM doesnt fail (as quickly) as they spend huge amounts of $$$ on engineering, where BEGi and FM don't spend as much.
Quoted for truth!
How high and where is your cooler and how many rows?
Dont bother with the scoop, it will fall off. Do not skip sealing the sides - hardest part/most benefit. Top and bottom are easy.
So don't, just make one package work and optimize that.
Laptimes tell the story. Look at the spec miata track record and if you run under them you're not slow, near 92%-93% of those times you're fast for 210-230whp.
In a turbo car? Watch your IAT and traffic a head. flatout in 5th and I will be in the rev limiter within half a minute.
Modifying a car leads to more tool time.
That aside, you could do a 5-6psi intercooled turbo setup to work up your skills and have less (not none) heating issues. Studs are always an issue, however - my welded 304 magic stainless studs a still on and zero leaks.
OEM doesnt fail (as quickly) as they spend huge amounts of $$$ on engineering, where BEGi and FM don't spend as much.
Cooling: I had heating issues, did the big radiator, did the rear coolant reroute, both helped but didn't eliminate the problem. Sealed around the radiator and cooling issues are history. Closing the heat exchangers so air entering the mouth can't bypass them is a must do and does not have to be a huge or expensive project.
Well, oil temps are a little high, but that's it.
making aluminum underbelly pans, radiator cover and a air scooper similar to the BEGI one. If you are going to do it you might as well do it right.
I am sure it will be so hard to dail down the boost when you go to the track though.
What constitutes driving like a man then?
And then several 5min+ full throttle runs up hills with no lifting (different occasion).
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09-01-2009, 02:06 PM
#28
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I installed my setup last week and spoke with Corky about some of these issues. He had some great information in regard to the bolts stretching when comparing cheaper bolts to true grade 8 bolts. Needless to say that I used grade 8 for the manifold to turbo bolts and turbine to downpipe bolts. I will keep an eye on the head to manifold bolts and will eventually upgrade those as well. If you upgrade to grade 8 you will have minimal issues. When metal gets hot it stretches, grade 8 and higher steel is made at a hotter temperature so it stretches less under the heating and cooling cycles it sees in a turbo environment.
What it comes down to is doing it right the first time, because I personally hate busting my knuckles as little as possible.
What it comes down to is doing it right the first time, because I personally hate busting my knuckles as little as possible.
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09-01-2009, 02:11 PM
#29
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Another thing to add is that water cooling the turbo in addition to just oil cooling/lubricating will increase oil change intervals by 1500-2000 miles, as per Corky's advice. I had no idea the difference was so significant.
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09-01-2009, 05:03 PM
#31
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I agree with doing it right to begin with instead of dailing it back. My question still comes back to if a milder setup avoids the hardware problem. I guess 200whp is not mild since it is pretty much double the factory output. But lets say a real basic 5-6psi 150-160whp setup. Seems like even at those levels people are having problems.
But then again at those levels I might as well get a supercharger, which I don't like.
But then again at those levels I might as well get a supercharger, which I don't like.
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10-10-2009, 03:18 PM
#32
Tial Turbine housing V band GT28R GT28R GT28RS .64 A/R:eBay Motors (item 380115875210 end time Nov-02-09 13:52:57 PST)
theres the solution for all loosening turbo fasteners. looks better flows better and is easier to work with.
theres the solution for all loosening turbo fasteners. looks better flows better and is easier to work with.
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10-10-2009, 04:13 PM
#33
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Tial Turbine housing V band GT28R GT28R GT28RS .64 A/R:eBay Motors (item 380115875210 end time Nov-02-09 13:52:57 PST)
theres the solution for all loosening turbo fasteners. looks better flows better and is easier to work with.
theres the solution for all loosening turbo fasteners. looks better flows better and is easier to work with.
Thanks for logging in today newb.
EDIT: $400 for that thing?!?!?! wow. I'm glad for my customers that I'm a TiAL dealer.
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10-10-2009, 04:27 PM
#34
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Tial Turbine housing V band GT28R GT28R GT28RS .64 A/R:eBay Motors (item 380115875210 end time Nov-02-09 13:52:57 PST)
theres the solution for all loosening turbo fasteners. looks better flows better and is easier to work with.
theres the solution for all loosening turbo fasteners. looks better flows better and is easier to work with.
In fact, I'm pretty sure that they stole that image from the ATP website.
I'm sure Tim can probably still get a better deal, but it amazes me when folks try to sell stuff like that on eBay for more than retail price.
Here's the complete list of V-band housings from ATP: http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant...egory_Code=TTH
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10-10-2009, 07:27 PM
#35
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Wow, wish I would have read this before I just bought my turbo and built my motor. I have what is basically a spec Miata that I am boosting, but I hate the idea of not being able to be reliable. My buddy came over and saw my project and just said....you could have done an LS1 and had a reliable motor, tranny, and rear end that were all built from the factory to handle 400 hp. Interesting thought.
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10-10-2009, 09:37 PM
#36
yea i know im a newb lol im trying to become more involved.
i wasnt posting the link as a price reference it was just the only place i knew i could find the link in a hurry.
has anyone tried these? http://www.impulseturbo.com/images/fasteners.jpg
they work great for keeping header bolts tight on the mustangs and they say they work good for header to manifold applications.
i wasnt posting the link as a price reference it was just the only place i knew i could find the link in a hurry.
has anyone tried these? http://www.impulseturbo.com/images/fasteners.jpg
they work great for keeping header bolts tight on the mustangs and they say they work good for header to manifold applications.
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10-11-2009, 11:59 AM
#37
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There is a thread to discuss turbo fasteners. You can read for pages and pages about a bunch of **** that doesn't work. Or, you can go with V-bands like i did. The great part about my hot-parts is that I can ****-stomp vettes, porsches, AMGs, blown z's, and CMC racecars for the entire track day which is like 120-minutes of seat time, and never get the tools out.
See, maybe you'll never have the problem, maybe someone will find a fix; I'll definitely drive all day and never take the tools out. lol
See, maybe you'll never have the problem, maybe someone will find a fix; I'll definitely drive all day and never take the tools out. lol
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