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Old 08-01-2006, 06:26 PM   #21
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When I was running the Pierburg and my 1.6 injectors at 8psi with the 8:1 disk, I was running 100psi+. If the disk actually ran on ratio, this would mean 8psi of fuel pressure per pound of boost above 0 VAC pressure (50psi). 8 pounds of boost (x) 8 psi of fuel pressure= 64psi of additional fuel pressure + 50 psi of 0 Vac pressure= too much fuel pressure!!! Since my fuel pressure guage was only accurate to 100psi, there was no telling how high I actually went. All I know is that one of my injectors failed several days later when I was pinging, and couldn't stop it- even with emanage tuning. Upon checking my plugs, I found 3 orange tipped, and one white snowman. After replacing, and changing my vortech disk with a lower ratio, all was ok.

Your going to be lean in spots no matter what with a pressure setup mainly because of the lean tip in and the fact that the Vortech ratio fluctuates. It doesn't matter if you have 1.6 injectors, or 1.8...pressure will still be too high. I would do what braineack suggested and buy the calibration disk kit with different sizes, and invest in a fuel pressure guage with sender, so you can keep tabs on your pressures. You can use oil pressure guages with senders, but they react quicker because they're meant for a higher viscosity fluid, aka oil.

I guess your at the point where you have to decide wether you wanna go with a pressure setup, or a flow setup. Must of us Emanage blue guys, do a combination of the 2.....but flow setups are far more accurate, and support higher boost levels. If you can live with 6-9psi, I would invest my money in a Begi AFPR and a fuel pressure guage. If you wanna go 10-15psi, I would invest in a used Link and a wideband.
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Old 08-01-2006, 08:05 PM   #22
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cheapest price was at summit, but they charge a $9 handling fee
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Old 08-01-2006, 08:40 PM   #23
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Pop's page says he reached around 140psi with the Peirburg on a 12:1 disc at 7psi, which is twice the fuel you acutally need. But at what point can you tell if the injectors are maxed out? I'm looking for around 9-10psi, which I need around 110psi of fuel. When I drop my Peirburg (thanks Miatanut, that thing should have gotten stopped in Customs with all the fuel left in it and the smell!) in I'll be able to reach that, but when will the injectors be maxed out (I know this is why piggybacks are so desirable...in due time...in due time).
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Old 08-01-2006, 09:07 PM   #24
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Quote:
(thanks Miatanut, that thing should have gotten stopped in Customs with all the fuel left in it and the smell!)

That's why I called it a water pump .....I wrapped it in a garbage bag, and I thought I had emptied the rest of the Ultra 94 out of it, but I guess not. Sorry man. Glad it got to ya.

Quote:
But at what point can you tell if the injectors are maxed out?
Most Mnetter's say never go past 90psi. Since the fuel line is only rated for 100psi, that would be some good advice. Remember, the more pressure you have, the harder it is for the injector "needle" to open/close against the pressure and is at risk of getting stuck. The only way to get more fuel into the engine past this point "safely" is to increase the injector size.
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Old 08-01-2006, 09:46 PM   #25
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why you guys gata get so flippin' technical on me!

Thanks for the help!
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Old 08-01-2006, 09:58 PM   #26
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I have 290cc injectors on the way I'm going to try to idle with.

btw, when I got the package it smelled so bad I laughed out loud.
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Old 08-02-2006, 09:43 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braineack
Pop's page says he reached around 140psi with the Peirburg on a 12:1 disc at 7psi, which is twice the fuel you acutally need. But at what point can you tell if the injectors are maxed out? I'm looking for around 9-10psi, which I need around 110psi of fuel. When I drop my Peirburg (thanks Miatanut, that thing should have gotten stopped in Customs with all the fuel left in it and the smell!) in I'll be able to reach that, but when will the injectors be maxed out (I know this is why piggybacks are so desirable...in due time...in due time).
I know you can do a bunch of theoretical calcs to figure out when your injectors should be maxed out, but I found out on the dyno.

When I ran the smaller 1.6 injectors at 8-9psi, Pierburg (tested to 120+psi), and BEGI afpr, on the dyno I could not get my AFR below ~14.5 at a certain point despite adjusting the begi unit.

I did about six runs each time raising the base pressure and rate of rise until the base pressure was above 60psi and the rate of rise was maxed out, and every run at the same spot on the chart (IIRC around 4.5k rpm), the afr would not budge. At this point the car is in open loop so the duty cycles should be about the same run to run and with no change despite ever increasing fuel pressure led me to believe the injectors were maxed out, and indeed switching over to larger injectors solved that problem.

Another big lesson for me was that the car did not ping at all on the dyno despite an AFR in the 15s at one point. In fact, it made the most power and felt great on the road running a bit leaner. It made me realize that even though I was not pinging, I was running dangerously lean without even knowing it so just b/c something technically "works" doesn't mean it works well.
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Old 08-02-2006, 10:49 AM   #28
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I'm going to schedule dyno time and mess around with it. I'll have my trusty pack of ratio discs with me, but an 8:1 disc pushing 9psi should push me to just over 100psi of fuel....we'll see. I'm assuming the reason people go with a piggyback at this point is to keep to pressures down while fiddling with the pulses and this and that to acheive the same results at higher boost levels.
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Old 08-02-2006, 11:01 AM   #29
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As a comparison of emanage vs. begi afpr/pierburg/bipes, I'd say two biggest improvements:

1) Better timing control, especially for higher boost since bipes can only pull so much.

2) Much prettier (which also leads to more power) AFR graph. Using the first setup, your AFRs still mirror the stock ECU graph and you can't fine tune fueling. You'll get one area perfect only to be rich in another. Much flatter AFR curve with emanage. I think Bruce had a pic of his that looked like a flat line across 12.5 or so.

Sorry for the thread drift.
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Old 08-02-2006, 11:19 AM   #30
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I think this is the one Tom is referring to:
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Old 08-02-2006, 11:28 AM   #31
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Yeah I've seen it, very pretty. I've always had a goal to try to squeeze as much power as possible out of it without the need of additional management. Allthough I know full well I'll be upgrading to the Emanage eventually, probably this winter when I have more down time.

I acutally emailed Corky about his calculations I gave earlier:
Needed fuel pressure = ( PR2 x 36) + boost

One his site in the instructions for his APFR he does not square PR although in reading some of his posts on M.net he does, It makes a big difference in how much fuel is needed at 8psi. 63psi vs. 93psi.

Snowsurfer: Sorry I kinda stole your post, but this is all good info and learning is fun.

Phillip: That bullet was for you
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Old 08-02-2006, 11:57 AM   #32
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Just ordered the whole set from Summit.

Braineack: Knowledge is power! In this case it really is!

Olderguy: NICE map!

Last edited by Snowsurfer03; 08-02-2006 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 08-02-2006, 12:57 PM   #33
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real quick, howcome everyone reccomends the begi afpr over the JR model?
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Old 08-02-2006, 01:01 PM   #34
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The BEGi is fully adjustable. I'm pretty sure the JR unit is a static ratio unit. So the BEGi can be a 1:1 or 12:1 FMU, where the JR has to be a 10:1 ratio (or whatever the ratio is). Plus Corky Bell (owner of BEGi) pretty much invented the AFPR and everything else is a mimic of his unit.
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Old 08-02-2006, 06:27 PM   #35
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Quote:
why you guys gata get so flippin' technical on me!
Where just tryin too keep ya from grenading .......that and keeping a positive image for the Greddy forum people. If too many people brake their ****, word will get back to the Mnetters........damn Mnetters!!!
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Old 08-06-2006, 02:43 AM   #36
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Alrighty then...I took a few runs with each disk. I even tryed the 4:1 disk but I am still running really rich according to my narrowband but it did make a big difference in responsiveness compared to the 12:1!

I want to be able to "stomp" on it and no bogging down! I can only give it 25% throttle before it starts sputtering and bogs down

Should I just get a 190 hp fuel pump?
Or change back to my stock pump?

Could my spark be blowing out???
I have Bosch platinum twin-tip plugs.
Should I try "cold" NGK plugs?
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Old 08-06-2006, 08:23 AM   #37
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Have you checked the voltage on your O2 clamp? Is it set too low? With that pump you might want to run with it closer to Stoich (.47 volts)
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Old 08-06-2006, 12:08 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olderguy
Have you checked the voltage on your O2 clamp? Is it set too low? With that pump you might want to run with it closer to Stoich (.47 volts)
+1 I have had bogging issues several times that were solved by adjusting my o2 clamp. FWIW, I also have a dark current that I still need to track down so when my battery is running low it really changes the o2 clamp setpoint as well. YMMV.
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Old 08-06-2006, 02:59 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowsurfer03
Alrighty then...I took a few runs with each disk. I even tryed the 4:1 disk but I am still running really rich according to my narrowband but it did make a big difference in responsiveness compared to the 12:1!
Tuning on a Narrowband is probably not a good idea:

The sensor cannot indicate what exactly the A/F ratio is in the rich or lean areas due to the fact that oxygen sensor output changes with temperature and wear. When the oxygen sensor temperature increases the voltage output will decrease in the rich area, and it will increase in the lean area
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Old 08-07-2006, 12:29 AM   #40
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Hummm... I just checked my o2 clamp and i set it to.50 with no luck.

Could colder spark plugs work?
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