What's wrong with Voodoo?
 

I know I'm new here, and I know it's fun to say "omg search we've discussed this LITERALLY a gazillion times." but what exactly is wrong with the Voodoo system?

I've done plenty of reading on here, and I've done plenty of googling, and I"m sure there's fantastic information out there, unfortunately it is now buried under 5000 other threads of people calling it the "doodoo" box and saying 'You'll blow up your engine with that bandaid" and no real information at all that I can find..

I'm planning my first turbo build, and thinking I may go with the FM "no electronics" kit and then MS DIYPnP it, but what exactly is wrong with the voodoo kit, and what makes MS so much better?

Thanks for going easy on me.

Do you understand how a Voodoo Box works/doesn't work? That's really the key to the question. :)

It works on voodoo obviously, says so right in the name. wires come in, wires go out, and your fueling somehow ends up somewhat ok.

there's nothing inhernetly wrong with a voodoo system, especially the actual turbo parts.

Mea culpa, I am referring specifically to the engine management as that is the only part of this I am still "on the fence" about.

No timing control, only "extends pulse width" no precise fueling adjustments that you can get from a VE table.

Cole's notes.

Voodoo is limited by the size of your stock injectors, does not control timing, "tricks" the computer into supplying more fuel.

On that note, I thought timing was not adjustable on 99s? I have adjusted the timing of my 97,but I was under the impression it's not possible on a 99. Does ms change that?

MS changes everything. It's a game changer. Cures Irritable Bowel Syndrome.

On the 99's you just cant adjust the position of the timing trigger like you can with the NA CAS. You can do whatever you want to the timing once you have a stand alone.

Really. Damn, another reason to ditch the EMS4, I'll be able to eat salad again. :party:

This is the old style instructions, but Read what it is capable of: http://www.flyinmiata.com/support/in...Voodoo_Box.pdf

That said, Don't take advice from me... however what I can say is because my build is very simple and I don't really give a fk anymore (I'm older, not my first rodeo, this is a play car, getting another motor in isn't a problematic affair) I am choosing to rock the voodoo box in conjunction with a timing retarder because it's simple and in the mean time I don't plan on running higher boost. If it blows, then oops... 181k motor died and it's my fault. Ultimately, you live you learn. Don't necessarily reinvent the wheel on this one, but choose within your means. If you aren't comfortable with it's capabilities then save your money and buy the best if it's worth it to you, don't worry about what anyone else thinks... but do learn from everyone elses mistakes and logged experiences. If you plan on making good power and you're serious... do what the serious boys and girls do and spend the scrilla.

With forums everything outside experience is hearsay and reiterated bull caca, so listen to the dudes that have put in the work here.

Awesome, so it sounds like MS DIYPnP is the way I want to go.

What are the chances of me screwing the pooch on this one? If I miss a solder or something, there are tests and checks and such, and I'll know BEFORE I throw a rod, right? :-P

If you're worried about missing a solder, then maybe a straight up MSPNP is the way to go.

Unless you're really looking for the learning experience. :)

I'd just do a normal MSPNP if it were me, either from DIY or Reverent/MSLabs.

Why? Because i'm lazy.

Not particularly worried about that in particular, just curious exactly what would happen if it isn't exactly right. I've done some soldering and whatnot, and I'll for sure pick up a practice electronics kit first to tinker with and learn some more..

Mostly looking forward to the learning experience. :) and hoping I don't :vash2: my engine.

I'm going to hold your hand because I understand your pain. My knowledge may be a little out dated here, so bear with me.

There is nothing wrong with the rest of the voodoo kit, its just the voodoo piggyback card that we don't like.

The voodoo adds more fuel based on hardcoded assumptions like rate of airflow and injector size. Unless things have changed dramatically since I looked at it, the only feedback the voodoo sees is the tap on the factory narrowband o2 sensor and the boost line that runs to an on/off pressure switch inside the box. When the narrowband goes lean and the box sees boost, it hijacks the injector pulse signal and starts adding more fuel to compensate for the additional air provided by the turbo, based on RPM. It does this in a semi linear fashion, but its very clunky and not exactly optimized. More air needs more fuel. This seems OK thus far, right?

Well, the other critical part of the performance formula is timing. Too much timing makes a boosted engine go boom, and neither the OEM ECU or the voodoo does nothing to retard timing with boost. With earlier cars you have to retard the base timing and with later cars you have to use an offset timing wheel thus tricking the factory ECU into thinking "Hey, I'm throwing 30° of timing at the motor" when in reality is only running 20°. This kills the low end on the motor for the benefit of keeping things "somewhat safe" on the top end with the boost.

Boost makes heat. If the stock ECU sees a bunch of heat, it will pull timing to avoid detonation, so you are losing even more timing. "But that sounds good, you said too much timing kills boosted motors." Well, there is a point of diminishing returns: remove too much timing and you dump unburned fuel into your exhaust and you fry your turbo and your cat. Remember that voodoo card that's just kinda throwing more fuel on the fire? Yeah, that's an issue. "Well, I'll just run an intercooler then. This will give me a denser air charge and drop my IATs so the stock ECU won't pull as much timing."

Congratulations, you have now built a totally unpredictable system with a myriad of variables controlled by 2 separate devices that have no inputs to compensate for the above listed variables. The Voodoo Card is a series of compromises that runs on a lot of assumptions, compromises and tricks. It gets the job done~ish, but its rather crude and has very little room for expansion or modification beyond the initial design envelope, and has little to no optimization.

Will the voodoo keep your engine together? Probably.

Will you pick up 20-30hp, 5-10mpg and better throttle/boost response on that same exact build if you swap the voodoo with a Megasquirt, a wideband and proper tune? Absolutely.

If anyone sees anything wrong with the above info, feel free to call me out on it so we can all get edumicated. :bigtu:

I believe you build yourself a jim stim that will allow you to bench test the MS before installing it.

This makes perfect sense, and is exactly the information I was looking for. Thank you so much.

Is that why your username is "Leafy"?

So, if I *am* planning to go with MS, are there any other kits out there that are as complete as the FM kit, but for less? I was looking at some of the begi kits, but it's hard to tell what all "extra stuff" i would need.. Is (for example) the Begi-S a "bolt on" kit in that it includes everything needed other than engine management?

I have a 99 base, and I really think I'd be happy with 180-200whp. I had a GTI and 200hp in that was more than enough for me, and this car is quite a bit lighter.

I found a great deal on an almost new supercharger setup when I decided to boost my car back in late 2008.
(For the record, I always wanted a supercharger - it's a personal preference, not because one form of FI is better than the other)

Well, the whole setup arrived, and it had a powercard system for engine management.
I proceeded to tune the powercards to the best of my ability, and made some horrendous mistakes along the way. Trial and error gave me fairly decent running car eventually.

Yes, the powercard system was adequate, even fine - at pretty low boost settings. One disclaimer to this end is this: I installed a pretty extensive port water injection system as a precaution.

Later, in my quest for more boost and power, I started looking into a standalone engine management solution, meaning, the stock ECU would be taken out of the car, and a new, "customizable" ECU would be installed and tuned correctly.

Let me emphasize one thing here: my engine did not blow up. Not even once, not even a tiny bit.
But, there comes a time when you just know you have outgrown an entry level system with inherent limitations.
God knows what EGTs I was running for instance. Or, how much I was wasting in terms of power, or gas mileage...
And, I was no longer running 6 psi of boost. I went up to 8, then 10, then 12 , all the way up to 16.5 eventually.

I pulled the trigger for an MSII right around the time I was at 10 psi.

Just shot an email to Reverant, and asked for help. A Paypal payment accompanied my email.
Reverant is an amazing source, a very unerstanding guy, a great vendor, and an overall electronics god. Praise be with Rev... Really.

Meanwhile, I was absolutely terrified with the idea of installing a standalone in my car. That thing could send my engine to outer space if I got it wrong. I had no idea whatsoever about anything related to MS and tuning an engine from scratch.

So, the box arrived at my doorstep, and I promptly placed it on the top shelf of my bookcase, and left it there for the next month or so. I looked at it everyday, and tried to muster the guts to actually install it in my beloved car.

After tons of reading and begging for help on this forum, I went out to my car and just installed the thing.
I turned the key, and Booom.. The car fired up and settled into a nice idle. That was a great moment.
Rev sends you a form, you fill it out, and then he loads/sets all the basics in the MS for you.
The rest was an incredibly steep learning curve. I just kept playing around with ALL the settings. I would first save the tune to my PC inside the house (to keep it safe) and then just have at it whenever I found some time.
That led to some incredible discoveries. With the MS, you have TOTAL control over how your car behaves. It can be a sweet kitty cat, a hound dog, or a fierce beast, or a combination of all those. I achieved a very sweet balance where I get great MPG on steady cruise, and a shrieking monster that lunges at anything that could be ahead of it coming out of turn 14 on the F1 track in Istanbul.
The whole learning bit took maybe a year. I took my time.
Rev ran to my rescue when I had problems.
The coolest thing about MS is Autotune. It's not a cure for cancer, or stupidity, but it really does wonders to your ability to understand and actually accomplish the magic that is called tuning.

So, your budget may dictate a Voodoo box at this very moment. Does not matter. Just know that you will drive a better car that responds better to your inputs with a standalone. And that, you will eventually end up with a standalone sometime down the line. Deciding when that "sometime" is going to be is up to you.
But, I would make that real soon if I were you.
Don't turn your driving into a struggle. Get an MS, and just enjoy the hell out of it.

Not sure how much time/effort you want to dedicate to your car...

Voodoo has one thing going for it, pretty simple to set up. MS is far from plug and play. As per the post above, there is research, fiddling and tuning that will keep you busy for weeks if not months.

Where are you located? I've helped several members get their cars together and tuned.

Megasquirt, even "plug and play", will certainly keep you busy for a while, but all that time spent is picking up power, efficiency, reliability, mpg, etc, that you won't see with a simple setup piggyback.

Most people here recommend getting the megasquirt set up on a stock car and learning to tune on it first. There is a lot to learn and an N/A car is much more forgiving.

^ That's huge if you can get someone local to show you the basics. Spending 30 minutes with someone that has even a very basic understanding of the software will help immensely in getting you up and running.

Firstly, stop thinking about any kits until you have the MS built and working on your car. It will make the whole process easier if you get your car runnning NA with the MS.

Secondly if you are used to a 200hp GTI a 200hp miata will put a big shit eating gin on your face. One of my friends had a new 09/10 GTI and went for a ride in my 94 with a little over 200hp at the wheels. He almost wanted to straight up trade. Then I mentioned the lack of AC and other nice things that he had in the GTI that are missing from the miata.

Sounds good. I'm liking this idea.

So, with a full IHE setup currently, if I get MS and do a 91 octane tune, will I squeeze any extra HP out of my current setup? or will it mostly just be the joy of tuning?

You'll get more out of it with a good tune.

I installed an MS3 basic in my otherwise stock 99 and have zero experience with any EMS or tuning cars at all.

With no ignition tuning except 3° pulled everywhere (because 87 octane) it felt same as stock. When I went to 93 and added the 3° back there was a noticeable bump in both torque and power.

I still haven't touched my idle, it sometimes gets stuck at 2200 but otherwise works almost like stock. Otherwise I put in <4 hours total tuning, and that gets it to 99% perfect. Those that say it's too difficult and that you should stick with a piggyback are idiots. It took ALMOST a full weeks worth of 30 seconds every morning and evening before I commuted to/from work to tune.

Thanks so much for your replies all.

I have a mate here in town who is willing to help with the tune. I'm located in the chippewa valley of WI, not sure if there are any members in that area (possibly some over in mpls?) but either way, I know a guy who said he is willing to help me tune. He has done plenty in the past.

I think this holiday season I'll be buying myself MS DIYPnP and a learn to solder kit, then learning to solder on some practice stuff, and then putting together the MS so that come spring when I can take my baby out of storage I'll be ready to set up for a good N/A tune.

This will also give me some extra time to save up for the turbo build as well, and possibly to piece something out of (good, quality) used parts.

Save up and go with a MS3X with a diybob over the MS DIYPNP. It may cost a few hundred extra, but long term it will be the most upgradeable.

Just to be clear, the diybob is basically a Wiring harness, right? I like this option mostest. Allows me to transfer it to another car/sell it to anyone, correct?

Any issues with going with MS3 without the expansion board at first? Are there any essentials on the ms3x that I will need for tuning the n/a NB?

I have the voodoo as well. Not a huge fan of it though. Running the flyinmiata voodoo2 kit and was trying to mess around with it other week on the dyno, wasn't even trying to go for power just wanted to make it safe and even when I turned the little screws for more fuel. It just felt like it wasn't doing much. Sadly I have to sell the car but if I were to keep it, is get MS.

Thats because there IS no more fuel, you're 1-2 psi over the max of the stock injectors.

It's only at 6. Sometimes hits 7

Yeah thats max for stock injectors. You can only keep an injector at 100%, any more doesnt do anything as the injector is already open 100% of the time. You sir are at 100% which is why turning it up more aint working.

Roughly 90% is max because of deadlines. It takes time to move the little internal parts and nothing really closes on the stock injectors above 90%

Well not really. 100% is max because you can keep injectors open without closing. In that case they are getting voltage 100% of the time and never closing which is whats happening at 6psi with the stock injectors.

Gotcha but on the bright side I pass inspection with no problem which is nice about the voodoo box

How bright is it when u grenade your motor because you've been running at 13 afr?

he is a 15post spambot moron that came here to sell his doodoo box equipped car

don't waste your posts on him

Actually did a run in 1:1 gear and afr were at 12.0. They were reading closer to 13 when going though 2nd and a little of 3rd which aren't load gears. Once it gets higher in the rpm range it comes down.

We just finished building my buddies turbo miata. He runs on links, old unit but I like it. Car makes a crap load of power.

Dude what is ur problem? I sent u a pm and u refuse to answer and continue to be a child here.

ARE YOU RETARDED? Or just dense enough to think we're all as stupid as you and/or born yesterday

You join, make 10 really pointless and stupid posts, then throw up your car for sale a week later.

You are not a contributing member to this forum, and an idiot if you really think we can't see past your BS.

And if you PM me again I'll blow up your inbox with things you've never seen before.

DIAF

Good day sir.

Why oh why did I not think of AFR by gear before?
Dafaq is a "load gear"?

Must make power if it has more than 1 link.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1388413793

Bro I feel really bad for you that you take this whole forum thing so seriously. Lol

I feel really bad for your car.

Car runs perfect. I'm done talking to u two idiots. Not here to start pointless arguments on a forum. Yes I have my miata up for sale and yes I joined cause I have two other miatas. One is a spec miata and other is a 96 that I plan to do autox with. So grow up and calm down already.

Which is it? Can't have both.

You can have both...both links in 1 car. Just ask him.

Two Links One Asshole.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1388451170https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1388451170

Two Links?

D: What happened to my thread?

Shhhhhhhhh....

No tears, only dreams.

I have owned a dozen Miatas, built my turbocharged and supercharged Miatas, fiddled with Megasquirt PNP, as well as ran AEM V2 on my 2001 S2000 with a Paxton 1200 (13 psi). And well the Corvette I can say had the cheapest and most affordable engine management to dynotune.

Of course, someone will make a joke about that, but I am saying all that for the pretext of what I am about to say.

If you are wanting an easy to install, hassle-free fuel management unit that will work well with the ECU, maintain your OBD-2 readouts, keep your air conditioning, and all the hard work that is put into making a car crank immediately in adverse temperatures and conditions without flooding the engine or repeated cranking attempts, then, contrary to what most people will say, the voodoo box is an economical choice and a reliable good working choice at that.

Just as long as you're power goals are practical and moderate, 6-8 psi, 160-180 rwhp based on year model and displacement. You'll have to retard timing by 2 or 4 degrees based on your available octane rating, so be expected to see a little dent in your midrange torque, but it isn't going to carbon lock your engine or clog your catalytic converter overnight, like some may suggest with impending doom in their post on here.

I would like to make one note, for kicks I used to have a 2004 MSM with little enchilada and a 1999 10AE with almost the same setup, same turbo, but voodoo box instead.

There was no comparison, the 1999, even with its voodoo box seemed to make more power and it's drivability hands-down decimated the MSM's craptastic tune of an ECU...

Now, honestly, are they worth 415 dollars plus shipping, I have to say no, but you can pick them up for 150 dollars used. If you got a reputable and professional tuner with a dynometer that can tune your car with Megasquirt PNP, then go that route. Get it set up, load the basemaps, and then let them deal with the harder stuff.

Unfortunately, for folks like me, we live in NASCAR land and our tuners would rather have someone shit in their face rather than tune a car that has four cylinders instead of eight.

The closest tuner I know would be top speed tuning in Alpharetta Georgia, but I doubt he does Megasquirt. So I am screwed... I probably have to drive 500 miles to get my car to a Megasquirt dyno tuner lol.

Cody, just use Tuner Studio VE Analyze Live.

This is exactly what I was saying previously. The problem is that no one can leave these systems alone and almost always want more, because they can have more. If you have the testicular fortitude to not screw with it, and if the above apply, then go for it.

See, this is where I respectfully disagree. You can pick up a solid used DIYPNP, MS2 or MS2-E for only slightly more and you don't need to pay someone for a dyno tune. (You should have a wideband either way so that's moot) If you read and learn and use the tools avalible, road tuning a Megasquirt is not that hard, but you must be willing to commit the time to doing it. There is a learning curve, and it can be steep, but its nothing that isn't insurmountable. We have enough examples of people posting copies of their AFR targets and timing tables with community feedback that finding something safe and conservative should be no problem at all, provided you read and understand exactly what you are doing. Don't misunderstand me, im not advocating loading a random tune off the internet, that's a sure recipe form disaster. You can blow up your shit with a megasquirt just as easily as you can with a voodoo.

Also, come on man, who told you that you had to give up AC with a MS? What's with the talk of flooding and whatnot? I never had the problems you described that couldn't be resolved with something in the tune or configuration.