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Old 03-08-2013, 01:04 PM   #1
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Default anyone like racing with ABS?

I've used this car a few times now in wheel to wheel racing, and when I really start to pick up the pace... and go deep in the braking zone, I have problems judging just how deep to go. I'm running an 04 miata with ABS.

There is no feedback. The pedal doesn't kick back; you don't hear any pre-lock-up squeel; the pedal just gets... well: hard. Kind of like brake fade. It's not at all confidence building. Worst, I can't seem to judge how deep I can take it.

Anyone like racing with the miata's ABS? If so, what do you feel for with threashold braking?
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Old 03-08-2013, 01:26 PM   #2
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Sounds like you need more time on track.

What pads, fluid, rotors are you using?
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Old 03-08-2013, 01:33 PM   #3
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Newb thread. you need to confirm a good bleed, then practice.
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Old 03-08-2013, 01:55 PM   #4
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In the wet, yes I love it.

With a proper "motorsports" tuned ABS, yes, I like racing with it because it will be faster.

With a shitty OEM ABS system, and upgraded brakes so the ABS gets a confused, that I don't like so much.
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Old 03-08-2013, 02:46 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
In the wet, yes I love it.

With a proper "motorsports" tuned ABS, yes, I like racing with it because it will be faster.

With a shitty OEM ABS system, and upgraded brakes so the ABS gets a confused, that I don't like so much.
Willwoods, hawk ht-10's, blues or PF pads. High temp fluid.

I mean it stops... I just can't reliably find the edge. In the past I was a racer that really used up the braking zone... now, not so much.

Can you explain your "motorsports" tuned ABS? Do you do something like unplug, fine adjust/tune your bias thru prop valves or dual pedals and then plug the abs back in?

What braking technique do you use other than just the "plant it hard and pray" technique that I'm currently using?
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Old 03-08-2013, 03:22 PM   #6
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IIRC Emilio uses ABS on all his race cars.
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Old 03-08-2013, 03:39 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by M.Adamovits View Post
IIRC Emilio uses ABS on all his race cars.
Emilio: What to you feel for just before full lock up? I've got a PIR non-chicane race coming up... almost a full mile straight and into the low 140's before an 85mph left. I've got to get to where I can brake hard at the 4 marker and then scrub off speed with the turn-in... reliably; every lap.... in order to keep up; or the "straight-line fast" ITE cars are going to pass me there.

At this point I'm not feelin' it... and want to unplug the abs fuse.

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Old 03-08-2013, 04:59 PM   #8
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Newb thread. you need to confirm a good bleed, then practice.
This man speaks the truth.
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Old 03-08-2013, 05:13 PM   #9
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This man speaks the truth.
Well then, seems I've gotten my answer. I'll leave the brakes to the computer another event or so.

In the formula car, you can feel every little twitch and hear each wheel for feedback. In the MSM, the brakes are just heavy and there's so little feedback.
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Old 03-08-2013, 05:37 PM   #10
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If you haven't added a prop valve to the system, you're not going to be faster than a non-ABS car.
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Old 03-08-2013, 05:50 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtred View Post
Willwoods, hawk ht-10's, blues or PF pads. High temp fluid.
It's 2013, stop using pads from the 80s.
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Old 03-08-2013, 05:56 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
It's 2013, stop using pads from the 80s.
Ha! I bet you can't disco...

Sav: I'll take you up on the prop valve. I suppose I'm supposed to dial in more front brake bias until I get reasonably even f/r lock and then plug in the ABS?
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Old 03-08-2013, 06:08 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtred View Post
Can you explain your "motorsports" tuned ABS?
If you have to ask, you probably can't afford it.

I don't know of any such thing for a miata...
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Old 03-08-2013, 07:21 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtred View Post
Ha! I bet you can't disco...

Sav: I'll take you up on the prop valve. I suppose I'm supposed to dial in more front brake bias until I get reasonably even f/r lock and then plug in the ABS?
Factory ABS relies on the ABS to do all the proportioning. The caveat here is that you have to actually engage the ABS to get the proportioning working - it will add rear brake after the ABS engages on the front, but that happens way too early. You need the ability to dial in the bias with the ABS unplugged, and then you can use it effectively.

Motorsport 4-channel ABS like the Bosch M4 system is ~$10k IIRC. Since I'm already adding ABS hubs/rings to Theseus for the Racelogic system, I briefly considered adding an M4 ABS system too, until I saw the price tag. $10k buys an awful lot of flatspotted Hoosiers.
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Old 03-08-2013, 07:57 PM   #15
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Ah, finally a plausible explanation how the 01+ EBD works.
FWIW the 99/00 systems have a prop valve and don't use ABS for proportioning.

Wouldn't the EBD system cause heavy understeer during trail-braking then?
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Old 03-09-2013, 02:12 AM   #16
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NB ABS + prop valve = win

Take some practice to get the most out of and nothing I can write here will help. Just go scare yourself until you get the feel for it.

949 Racing SuperMiata - YouTube
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Old 03-09-2013, 12:29 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtred View Post
Ha! I bet you can't disco...
I can
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Old 03-09-2013, 01:44 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
NB ABS + prop valve = win
Do you mean the 99/00 ABS and replacing the factory prop valve, or taking an 01+ with EBD and adding in a prop valve?
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Old 03-09-2013, 01:51 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Factory ABS relies on the ABS to do all the proportioning. The caveat here is that you have to actually engage the ABS to get the proportioning working - it will add rear brake after the ABS engages on the front, but that happens way too early.
The more I thought about this, the more downsides I see to this simple algorithm. Did you come to this conclusion from observation or from a good description of EBD?
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Old 03-09-2013, 08:39 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonc sbb View Post
do you mean the 99/00 abs and replacing the factory prop valve, or taking an 01+ with ebd and adding in a prop valve?
nb2
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