Brakes ????
 

I have a couple of brake questions. Does anyone pull their ABS fuse for dry track days? Or employ a switch? I sometimes feel the ABS kick in. I’m not sure if I could do better without or if it is saving me from flat spotting a tire.

I’m using XP-8s currently but think it may be time to move to XP-10s. I’m getting faster. I’m also going to need to replace my RS3s, after my next track day, and want to go to NT-01s or Maxxis RC-1s. I think these grippier tires, on their own, warrant the XP-10s. I’m wondering if there is a need to go to a BBK if I have yet to beat the Spec Miata track record at my track.

Thanks!!

I don't run ABS, but as to the BBK question -

Plenty of lower-powered Miatas going fast on standard brakes, no need to change to a BBK 'just because' but there are plenty of factors that can determine that a BBK is the right move for you.
Reasons to change to a BBK include: if you need more thermal capacity (overheating brakes near end of the session), if you want to reduce consumable costs over the long term, if you want to extend the lifespan of those consumables, and/or if you're experiencing pad taper with standard calipers.

At 200whp, you'll be getting close to SM times with your planned tire change, but with higher speeds on the straights and therefore more demand on the brakes than a SM.

Yes, XP10 (at least) would be a smart move when you change to NT01/RC1. Depending on the braking demands of your tracks, you may even need XP12 if you stick with standard brakes. With a BBK which has more thermal capacity and/or with brake ducts XP10 may be sufficient.

<p></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>I think you will need more than XP-10s if you are really getting the most out of your tires. &nbsp;I am not sure if a BBK is required, but probably want to atleast do brake ducts I would think at your power level.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>XP10s/8s last maybe 2&nbsp;weekends (3 if I am being risky)&nbsp;in my car with NT-01s. &nbsp;I have 1.8 brakes and no ducts though.</p>

Front pads mostly or both?

I have TSE brake ducts now. My pads are lasting waaaaay longer than 2 weekends! Maybe I just don't brake hard enough! I do run SRF fluid and have those titanium "Hard Brake" shims to help insulate heat transfer to calipers. I have the OEM Sport brakes also if that makes a difference

<p></p><p>Fronts only. &nbsp;Rears are fine.<br /><br />I am running locally competitive PTE/SM laptimes on NT-01s, so I can definitely see them not lasting long. &nbsp;Not a slight against them considering XP8s are entry level. &nbsp;XP10s last a bit better. &nbsp;I havent had any issues since switching to DTC-60s, but the reality is I need brake ducts.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>I am sure the sport brakes&nbsp;help (and the ducts). &nbsp;I wouldn't do a BBK in your case.</p>

how is the balance of the car in the first 1/3 of a turn?

I would. The improvement in pedal feel alone is worth the upgrade, IMO. Running costs also drop slightly.

e: A BBK is virtually required to extract max potential from a 200whp Miata. BTDT

Stock 1.8L pads, 1.8L calipers, race pads, 220whp, 5sec under SM record, 5 sessions at Laguna:
Outside:
Attachment 183866
Inside:
Attachment 183867

Do the Sport brakes wear pads more evenly?

I agree with the "yes, a BBK is worth it" comments above, plus the other benefit is lower unsprung weight. Compare the cost-per-pound-reduction of brakes vs that of forged wheels and it's actually pretty competitive.

--Ian

no race pads should wear evenly. not something you should consider when building a system.

That seems counter-intuitive. If the caliper is working efficiently it should apply equal pressure on both sides of the pad. ????????

It's basically impossible for it to do it completely evenly. A caliper is a U-shape, and when you apply pressure in the middle of the U, it's going to expand more on the open end than it will on the closed end. You can't close both ends because then you wouldn't be able to fit the rotor in there.

--Ian

Makes sense, thanks.

<p></p><p>If he said &quot;I am running 5s under spec miata&quot; I would say, yes definitely get a BBK. &nbsp;but he is not even at SM times yet. &nbsp;As for pedal feel, my pedal is amazing with a 1&quot; master cylinder (which you can do for considerably less). &nbsp;Not trying to argue, I am just basing mine off my experience.<br /><br />Certainly a BBK now will be building for the future and that is definitely valuable.</p>

What's your data say? Max G's when braking, slope of the deceleration?

A recent article I read said, in general, max braking Gs should be around 90% of your max cornering Gs.

I only use Harry's Lap Timer with my Iphone 5. I actually think that data is available but I haven't really been looking at data, other than lap times. I guess I better see if that info is available.

I see those front Big Brake Kits have the same size rotor as my sport brakes have now, but with two pistons. Some kits mention adding sport brakes in the rear, which I have already. It would seem my brakes would already have the thermal capacity of these kits and be far superior than standard 1.8 brakes, but I DO trust Andrew's opinion. Maybe I should start with some fresh fluid and some XP-10s or XP-12s and see what happens before going BBK.

Since you have the sport stuff already, the front FM Little Big Brake kit with the Wilwood calipers might be a nice upgrade. I think that's basically a bracket and caliper upgrade.

You use a 1" master cyl with the stock brakes? I haven't heard of this, I thought they were for BBK. You see this as a beneficial mod without BBK?

That's my point. His brakes work now, but there will come a time when they may not do the job. Upgrading when it comes time to do pads/rotors next would be a good choice, since it future-proofs the car and improves pedal feel/performance at the same time.

Sport front rotors are 10.6", our BBK is 11.75"

All of our BBKs use four-piston or six-piston calipers

I disagree :party:

Product Link - Trackspeed Gen2 11.75" Big Brake Kit

Agree- I'd just upgrade fluid and pads and then wait and see what happens... as you get faster you'll eventually need larger brakes.

That said- a bbk for the front axle is probably pretty cheap (that's all you'll need... my bbk has sport rear discs).

Adding to the -BBK is worth it side. I'm at 145ish whp. With stock 1.8 brakes, DTC60s and running at or slightly better than SM records, I was going through a set of pads in a weekend more or less. Found a deal on the 11.75" BBK, upgrade the rears to 11" rotors- pad life is way way extended. And fuck- dat pedal feel.

I couldn't imagine having 200whp and not having bigger brakes. I would never feel confident going into a turn.

<p></p><p>Motherfucking yes. I just installed dynapros on a 11.5&quot; mini cooper rotor. Took it to the track on monday and holy shit, the feels. It was amazing compared to my old spongy 1.8 front calipers. I wasn't afraid to brake later and later, and they inspired a lot more confidence. As a novice and still learning how to drive on a track it made a huge difference in my confidence.</p>

The powerlite calipers on the LBBK have small pads with limited pad selection. Fine for the rear but not for the front of a heavily tracked car.

This. Oy vey, don't get me started on the LittleBBKs. On the front of the car, they're a downgrade from stock.

So just your basic BBK would be enough with some DTC-60 pads. Can I leave my sport rears with XP-8s or go for DTC-60 there also? How important is the proportioning valve with ABS? Since I'll be needing new pads soon and my rotors are getting thinner maybe it IS best to bite the bullet now. It may be worth it just for the confidence it may give me.

If you like the XP pads, stick with those. We don't include pads for that reason - it allows you to pick. I like the DTC-60s for their price and characteristics, but I've used XP12s in the past and they are good pads if you are OK with the cost and finnicky break-in.

The base kit is a perfectly competent BBK, yes. My black turbo racecar ran DTC-60s in Dynalites on straight-vane 11.75s for years with pretty good results. I would typically get 2-3 days out of a set of pads and 5-6 days out of a set of rotors, but that's in a 350whp car going 8-10sec under SM record. I think the Dynapros are a worthwhile upgrade for everyone, and if you struggle for rotor life, the directional rotors will help with that.

I'm on 11.75" kit in front with DTC-60's, xp-8's in the rear with sport rotors, 1.8 caliper on adapters. works great.

off-topic:
I do. I like it. Just think, very stiff porsche style pedal. You got a few options:
1) 949/Wilwood 1" with the 99 booster (sealed).
2) 949/Wilwood 1" with 01+ style boosters (non-sealed). You will need to figure out a way to seal the booster. I guess Silicone would work, or if you can find an gasket/o-ring? I sent Emilio an e-mail a long time ago about how he got this to work on crusher...but he didn't share ;).
3) 929 (the car) Master cyliner with 01+ style boosters.

Is it worth it? I think so. The pedal feel is stiff and very short travel. Your choice of booster, overall grip, and brake pads will determine if it increases effort compared to stock or not.

With that said, I did it because I plan to move to a BBK. That's on the back burner now for chumpcar.

1) What is the difference between the Dynapros and Dynalites?

2) Do the directional rotors last THAT MUCH longer to justify $150 premium? I could see on an enduro car but for an HPDE car are they worth the difference?

3) I like the lower cost on the DTC-60s, but could I drive them back and forth to the track? Local track is 40 minutes away...mostly highway.

.

Most of this topic is answered in the first post of this thread and a couple subsequent posts: 4 Piston DynaPro caliper upgrade for almost ALL Big Brake Kits

As long as you drive accordingly, knowing that they don't have much bite when cold (don't tailgate people, drive defensively, etc.) you can get to the track just fine.

Cobalt pads might be a good choice. I know from just taking a quick trip up the road that they have plenty of bite on the street.

They are also twice the price.

I used Carbotech's on my last two Miata brake setups and was happy with them.

On the BRZ this time I'm giving the Winmax W5 pads a go.

Winmax is 2x-3x the price. They also scale the pricing increase for their pads linearly as performance increases, despite the relatively similar cost of production for pads across the line. It could be in part because the higher friction stuff is produced in smaller quantities, but the pricing structure still doesn't sit well with me.

If you're going to increase the budget, PFC or bust.

I've been told the Cobalts last longer. I dunno.

Carbotech does the same thing in regards to pricing vs performance.

And at least on the BRZ, the equivalent pads between the two brands are about the same price. I think the Winmax may have been about $20/cheaper for all 4 corners.

I just felt like giving something new a shot for the new platform.

only 2 types of racers out there. the ones that have tried the PFC's, and those that haven't.

once you try PFC's you won't go back to anything else.

All the talk of PFC is one of the driving forces in me saving my pennies for Trackspeed's kit this winter.

I really wish i had never put Sport brakes on my car.

The Cobalts have more bite than the EBC yellows I tried previously. I think the PFC have a higher initial friction level than the Cobalt XR3. Maybe too aggressive for HPDE?

ugghhh what? pfc's have a low initial bite.
you don't match the pads to the event, you match the pads to your tire.

Bought the TSE BBK with Dynapros!

^that is from using the wrong compound. too low of TQ. the tire over powered the pad temperatures skyrocketed and melted everything.

No. It was from using brakes (specifically rotors) that were too small for the application. Those were high-end race pads with an MOT of ~1650*F.

define "high end". i have seen this happen with pfc pads but nobody is saying what the compound or brand is. a small rotor will not help with temperatures either.

Not interested in saying which pad, because people will misinterpret those photos and think poorly of the pad brand/compound when the reality is that no pad would have withstood that abuse. I do not sell the brand, but I used them in Wilwood calipers successfully, and they are extremely popular in the Miata world.

I have to say, that despite the knocking that EBC pads get, my EBC yellows looked much better than that on 1.6 rotors, when I removed them. Granted, I'm not the fastest driver but my co-driver is pretty darn good so I know he put some heat in them.

Cobalt XR3 are a medium torque pad.

Here's Advance Autosports take on it...

"The new PFC compound was supposed to replace the PFC 97 compound and be comparable. The 97 compound was made unavailable. After running this new compound in 2014 the verdict is that they aren't as good as the old 97 compound. Advanced Autosports was able to convince PFC to make 97 compound pads for us because of the feedback we received from our customers. We will still be selling the PF11/PF14/PF08 compound pads, but we recommend you purchase the 97's instead."

I dunno.

Here's Cobalts pad list and what competitor pads are comparable.

1994-2000 (Cobalt-Optimized pad design)

The Cobalt XR3 and PFC 97 and I assume new 11 are listed as comparable pads.

Let me tell you about EBC Yellows. They may last and apparently handle a lot of heat according to EBC's graph, but they have no good characteristics in a track pad.

Here is my experience with them on the Lexus:
-Their initial bite was worse than the AC Delco $20 pad that we used to test fit our new pad shape.
-They required ALOT of pressure to stop, so low COF.
-They increased pedal travel considerably at the same braking force.

I don't have an issue with initial bite on mine, anything on my car will require a lot of pedal pressure due to setup, and i don't have much pedal travel to begin with.

That said, i would NOT recommend anyone use these on a Miata. There's better out there for similar price, they DESTROY rotors at a rate that's hard to believe, and the cold, lukewarm, warm, and almost hot performance is incredibly terrible.

They just flat out don't work until they're almost smoking. And when they're not smoking, they're working as a cheese grater on your rotors.

Brakes ????
 

EBC have good marketing and availability, that's it.
There might be an application where anystuff are not terrible, but there will always be better options.

Yes. This.

Full weight MSM (well, more with the Blackbird GT3 roll bar)
190rwhp
11.75" front dyanapro with PFC 01s and 2.5" ducting
Stock sport brakes, rear, with XP8s, SS lines.
Motul 660 fluid
Stock MC
NT-01 (205s) on 6UL

The pedal feel change was amazing even daily driving. I could brake super late which for me, not "racing" for time, adds mad fun and overall I have amazing confidence in the system (I was told this could get even better with more aggressive pads). I almost replaced my MC thinking this was the issue until I made the change.

Do you have ABS? Do you run a Prop valve

MSM with full ABS. This weekend on a dynamic track (aka one with actual elevation changes) I did not notice any interference from the ABS with this set-up. If the ABS 'pulsed'/engaged I never felt it (which does not mean much coming from the blunt instrument that i am).

I almost did the same thing.

You would've felt it, ABS engaging is not subtle.

--Ian

Is there a big performance difference between the dynalites and the dynapros

Not sure, have not driven them back to back.

I'm running Dynalites, SS lines, 11" rotors, ATE 200 and XP8s. The 11" is not that much terribly larger than stock, but I felt like ditching the stock caliper was key.

I quoted the above for truth. I would go as far as to say that my brakes are now so good that its almost frustrating to drive on track with people who have STOCK brakes. Not that I am that omgamazballs a driver, but in an intermediate group full of Miatas (such as at MRLS this last weekend) traffic can be annoying as I end up paying more attention to the brake lights of the people in front of me (to avoid contact because they break so early) than I do to my own line and braking points. Once I get free of traffic and corner at my own pace things get much much faster.

Specific example: On turn 5 @ MRLS a lot of guys are braking all the way back at the bridge but when I'm out there by myself, I can brake between the #3 & #2 marker and carry MUCH more speed through the corner before heading up the hill.

The confidence boost is insane. Getting away from the stock caliper is key.

Brakes? Don't brake for 5 ;)

(depends on power/tires/aero)