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Old 09-22-2015, 11:45 AM   #1
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Default Brakes ????

I have a couple of brake questions. Does anyone pull their ABS fuse for dry track days? Or employ a switch? I sometimes feel the ABS kick in. I知 not sure if I could do better without or if it is saving me from flat spotting a tire.

I知 using XP-8s currently but think it may be time to move to XP-10s. I知 getting faster. I知 also going to need to replace my RS3s, after my next track day, and want to go to NT-01s or Maxxis RC-1s. I think these grippier tires, on their own, warrant the XP-10s. I知 wondering if there is a need to go to a BBK if I have yet to beat the Spec Miata track record at my track.

Thanks!!
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Old 09-22-2015, 01:19 PM   #2
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I don't run ABS, but as to the BBK question -

Plenty of lower-powered Miatas going fast on standard brakes, no need to change to a BBK 'just because' but there are plenty of factors that can determine that a BBK is the right move for you.
Reasons to change to a BBK include: if you need more thermal capacity (overheating brakes near end of the session), if you want to reduce consumable costs over the long term, if you want to extend the lifespan of those consumables, and/or if you're experiencing pad taper with standard calipers.

At 200whp, you'll be getting close to SM times with your planned tire change, but with higher speeds on the straights and therefore more demand on the brakes than a SM.

Yes, XP10 (at least) would be a smart move when you change to NT01/RC1. Depending on the braking demands of your tracks, you may even need XP12 if you stick with standard brakes. With a BBK which has more thermal capacity and/or with brake ducts XP10 may be sufficient.
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Old 09-22-2015, 01:21 PM   #3
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<p>
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomiboy View Post
I have a couple of brake questions. Does anyone pull their ABS fuse for dry track days? Or employ a switch? I sometimes feel the ABS kick in. I&rsquo;m not sure if I could do better without or if it is saving me from flat spotting a tire. I&rsquo;m using XP-8s currently but think it may be time to move to XP-10s. I&rsquo;m getting faster. I&rsquo;m also going to need to replace my RS3s, after my next track day, and want to go to NT-01s or Maxxis RC-1s. I think these grippier tires, on their own, warrant the XP-10s. I&rsquo;m wondering if there is a need to go to a BBK if I have yet to beat the Spec Miata track record at my track. Thanks!!
</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>I think you will need more than XP-10s if you are really getting the most out of your tires. &nbsp;I am not sure if a BBK is required, but probably want to atleast do brake ducts I would think at your power level.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>XP10s/8s last maybe 2&nbsp;weekends (3 if I am being risky)&nbsp;in my car with NT-01s. &nbsp;I have 1.8 brakes and no ducts though.</p>

Last edited by Seefo; 09-22-2015 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 09-22-2015, 01:28 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seefo View Post
XP10s/8s last maybe 2&nbsp;weekends (3 if I am risk)&nbsp;in my car with NT-01s. &nbsp;I have 1.8 brakes and no ducts though.
Front pads mostly or both?
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Old 09-22-2015, 01:58 PM   #5
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I have TSE brake ducts now. My pads are lasting waaaaay longer than 2 weekends! Maybe I just don't brake hard enough! I do run SRF fluid and have those titanium "Hard Brake" shims to help insulate heat transfer to calipers. I have the OEM Sport brakes also if that makes a difference
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Old 09-22-2015, 02:13 PM   #6
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<p>
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Originally Posted by ThePass View Post
Front pads mostly or both?
</p><p>Fronts only. &nbsp;Rears are fine.<br /><br />I am running locally competitive PTE/SM laptimes on NT-01s, so I can definitely see them not lasting long. &nbsp;Not a slight against them considering XP8s are entry level. &nbsp;XP10s last a bit better. &nbsp;I havent had any issues since switching to DTC-60s, but the reality is I need brake ducts.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>
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Originally Posted by tomiboy View Post
I have TSE brake ducts now. My pads are lasting waaaaay longer than 2 weekends! Maybe I just don't brake hard enough! I do run SRF fluid and have those titanium &quot;Hard Brake&quot; shims to help insulate heat transfer to calipers. I have the OEM Sport brakes also if that makes a difference
</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>I am sure the sport brakes&nbsp;help (and the ducts). &nbsp;I wouldn't do a BBK in your case.</p>
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Old 09-22-2015, 03:53 PM   #7
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how is the balance of the car in the first 1/3 of a turn?
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Old 09-22-2015, 04:25 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seefo View Post
I am sure the sport brakes&nbsp;help (and the ducts). &nbsp;I wouldn't do a BBK in your case.</p>
I would. The improvement in pedal feel alone is worth the upgrade, IMO. Running costs also drop slightly.

e: A BBK is virtually required to extract max potential from a 200whp Miata. BTDT

Stock 1.8L pads, 1.8L calipers, race pads, 220whp, 5sec under SM record, 5 sessions at Laguna:
Outside:
DSCN1355.jpg?
Inside:
DSCN1356.jpg?

Last edited by Savington; 09-22-2015 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 09-22-2015, 05:17 PM   #9
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Do the Sport brakes wear pads more evenly?
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Old 09-22-2015, 05:39 PM   #10
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I agree with the "yes, a BBK is worth it" comments above, plus the other benefit is lower unsprung weight. Compare the cost-per-pound-reduction of brakes vs that of forged wheels and it's actually pretty competitive.

--Ian
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Old 09-22-2015, 06:11 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wannafbody View Post
Do the Sport brakes wear pads more evenly?
no race pads should wear evenly. not something you should consider when building a system.
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Old 09-22-2015, 07:08 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OGRacing View Post
no race pads should wear evenly. not something you should consider when building a system.
That seems counter-intuitive. If the caliper is working efficiently it should apply equal pressure on both sides of the pad. ????????
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Old 09-22-2015, 09:14 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wannafbody View Post
That seems counter-intuitive. If the caliper is working efficiently it should apply equal pressure on both sides of the pad. ????????
It's basically impossible for it to do it completely evenly. A caliper is a U-shape, and when you apply pressure in the middle of the U, it's going to expand more on the open end than it will on the closed end. You can't close both ends because then you wouldn't be able to fit the rotor in there.

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Old 09-22-2015, 10:17 PM   #14
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Makes sense, thanks.
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Old 09-22-2015, 10:57 PM   #15
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<p>
Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
I would. The improvement in pedal feel alone is worth the upgrade, IMO. Running costs also drop slightly. e: A BBK is virtually required to extract max potential from a 200whp Miata. BTDT Stock 1.8L pads, 1.8L calipers, race pads, 220whp, 5sec under SM record, 5 sessions at Laguna: Outside: &nbsp;Inside:
</p><p>If he said &quot;I am running 5s under spec miata&quot; I would say, yes definitely get a BBK. &nbsp;but he is not even at SM times yet. &nbsp;As for pedal feel, my pedal is amazing with a 1&quot; master cylinder (which you can do for considerably less). &nbsp;Not trying to argue, I am just basing mine off my experience.<br /><br />Certainly a BBK now will be building for the future and that is definitely valuable.</p>
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Old 09-22-2015, 11:27 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomiboy View Post
Maybe I just don't brake hard enough!
What's your data say? Max G's when braking, slope of the deceleration?

A recent article I read said, in general, max braking Gs should be around 90% of your max cornering Gs.
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Old 09-23-2015, 09:20 AM   #17
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I only use Harry's Lap Timer with my Iphone 5. I actually think that data is available but I haven't really been looking at data, other than lap times. I guess I better see if that info is available.

I see those front Big Brake Kits have the same size rotor as my sport brakes have now, but with two pistons. Some kits mention adding sport brakes in the rear, which I have already. It would seem my brakes would already have the thermal capacity of these kits and be far superior than standard 1.8 brakes, but I DO trust Andrew's opinion. Maybe I should start with some fresh fluid and some XP-10s or XP-12s and see what happens before going BBK.

Last edited by tomiboy; 09-23-2015 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 09-23-2015, 10:55 AM   #18
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Since you have the sport stuff already, the front FM Little Big Brake kit with the Wilwood calipers might be a nice upgrade. I think that's basically a bracket and caliper upgrade.
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Old 09-23-2015, 11:34 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seefo View Post
my pedal is amazing with a 1&quot; master cylinder (which you can do for considerably less).
You use a 1" master cyl with the stock brakes? I haven't heard of this, I thought they were for BBK. You see this as a beneficial mod without BBK?
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Old 09-23-2015, 11:52 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seefo View Post
Certainly a BBK now will be building for the future and that is definitely valuable.</p>
That's my point. His brakes work now, but there will come a time when they may not do the job. Upgrading when it comes time to do pads/rotors next would be a good choice, since it future-proofs the car and improves pedal feel/performance at the same time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomiboy View Post
I see those front Big Brake Kits have the same size rotor as my sport brakes have now
Sport front rotors are 10.6", our BBK is 11.75"

Quote:
but with two pistons.
All of our BBKs use four-piston or six-piston calipers

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It would seem my brakes would already have the thermal capacity of these kits
I disagree

Product Link - Trackspeed Gen2 11.75" Big Brake Kit
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