stevos555

Thank you. I concluded that wiring the wiper and washer was complicated enough to put within reach that keeping the combo switch became a no brained even if it's a race car.

Gee Emm

The use of indicators here is considered ambiguous. Are you saying that is where I am going, or that is where I want you to go? So here, it is point them by, onus on the overtaker to not hit anyone/thing.

Having said that, I kept them on the racecar, but AFAICR never used them.

rrjwilson

Rather interesting how each country sees the use of indicators (or lack of) on track.
Given the first indicators were American in 1907 under patent to replace the not that easily visible hand gestures or if really posh tiny pop out flags which were again not that visible.
You would think it would be a point everyone could agree on as the best method to alert those around you.

I agree the intent and onus is subject to scrutiny as Gee Emm points out but surely with safety briefing before hand everyone could agree to use a method and be safe on their day.

@stevos555 Keeping them is probably down to time more than anything. For padlock traversal they are probably very helpful where as on track they are less so.
You could try to find the connector for the stalks remove the stalks and wire to a centre console. It would be easy fast and clean.

masterjr33

Can we just split the difference and use large arm shaped trafficators for our semaphore signal?

concealer404

iTrader: (3)

Yes!

Or.... those huge foam number 1 finger sportball cheering things!

Midtenn

iTrader: (15)

I have run with a few groups who have are moving towards using the signals to indicate which direction you want to be passed. The reason for the difference in hand signals vs. indicators is that all the track days I've been to in the US require the windows be down. Were as in Europe is seems more common for the windows to stay up.

rrjwilson

Yes
Oh my god yes!

Its fecking freezing here so windows tend to stay up

Supe

Windows? I barely even have doors.

Blkbrd69

Real race car get rid of them. "That means full cage, window net, side net and containment seat." IE real race car...

Others keep them. HPDE, Time Trial ext...The only time I use them on track is Daytona, for obvious reasons.

Point bys vary by run group, but I prefer the direct arm point by as to many people especially drivers in less experienced groups accidentally turn on signals. Imagine a 70 MPH closure speed on a 38* bank and the driver has a turn signal on and still moves over????

Why would a slower driver ever change line to let a faster car buy? This leads to unpredictable drivers making even more unpredictable moves?

Do racers move over to allow cars to pass? No its the faster car that makes the pass. So why teach bad habits?

Your Drunkle

Can confirm. In less experienced run group, have done that.

Quigs

iTrader: (2)

To the OP - I have removed my stalks completely in my HPDE/track day car. It's not registered for the road nor will it ever be. It will also never be sold unless as scrap so I wasn't worried about resale value or anything with hacking up factory harness and switches. I personally found that not having the stalks just gives me a little more room to relax my fingers on the steering wheel without hitting anything and potentially causing some of the indicator issues stated in this thread. Even in advanced run groups I've seen people do entire laps with their signals on and not even realize it. I tend to give those people a wide berth as I feel I never know what their intentions are until I see them go through a few corners and stay on line...then I assume it's on accidentally and will work on the pass.

I simply deleted the turn signals all together. The headlights/taillights I moved to the stock fog light switch as my factory fog lights are long gone. One push of the button gives me headlights and tail markers. No need for high beams or markers only. For the wipers I moved the high speed wire to the stock cruise control switch (obviously no cruise control needed in racecar) and deleted the low speed and intermittent wipers. The only thing my wipers don't do is auto-park in the down location, but they move so slow even on high speed that timing hitting the switch so they are down correctly when in the paddock is no big deal. It took all of 5 minutes to do and I didn't bother looking at a wiring diagram to try to make the auto-park feature work since it was so easy to do. My windshield always gets Rain-X before a potentially wet weekend so the wipers only ever come on in a true downpour or if behind someone's spray. Once they are on I usually leave them on the whole rest of the stint unless I have time on a straight to cut them off. Rain-X takes care of all water on the windshield 90% of the time though. Some people I've run with deleted the wipers completely and rely solely on Rain-X. I'm not that brave...yet...

To the other topic this thread has turned into, I personally like hand signals over indicators. Hand signals (when done properly of course) are very clear. All the organizations I've run with so far use hand signals and I've never had trouble getting a clear hand out even in a corner. Indicators do seem rather vague: are you telling me where YOU are going or are you telling me where you want ME to go? Even if discussed in the driver's meeting at length there are still people who will forget what the signal means. There are still people in Intermediate groups I've run in that can't remember which side of the track is off-line to point someone by on...

mx5-kiwi

I am not sure how an indicator is ambiguous. Indicators have only ever been to indicate intent of your own direction change.

Hand signals on the other hand are usually always to indicate where you are allowing the following car through....

Maybe that's the ambiguity?

Personally it seems logical to me leave them in unless a truly, fully stripped race car.

rrjwilson

That is why indicators replaced little flaps and why little flaps replaced hand gestures.

I believe the folks here are not arguing the indicator is not a good method but its operator is unreliable.
Which would result in being some marshall based telling off here but it seems to happen a lot in the US by everyone's reactions.

Quigs

iTrader: (2)

Some groups (in the US) use indicators to tell the following car which side the indicating car wishes to passed on similar to a point-by.

Other groups use indicators to tell which direction the indicating car is moving.

I personally do not have experience with either as NASA uses hand signals in HPDE, but I can certainly see the ambiguity if someone were to run with multiple groups that use indicators differently and forget which group they were running with that day or relying solely on muscle memory to indicate. With NASA at least, I know I can ignore any and all indicators and that a hand signal point-by is clear and obvious that the driver pointing me by knows that I'm coming by and where.

But, as with everything else in life, it's all about what you know and are used to. If someone only runs with groups that use indicators then it makes sense that they feel that is more appropriate and the proper indicator is given appropriately without much thought. The same goes for me preferring hand signals because that's what I started with years ago and so it's all I've known. Pointing by out the window doesn't require any conscious thought in my head, it just happens instinctively when I see someone faster coming up behind me.

Blkbrd69

Example of what happens when you combine two rungroups on a track like Daytona where they have said to use turn signals. You will see the traffic jams that are caused and how people are good at arm signals but not turn signals.
Was a few years ago and starts just after out lap but you get the idea. Closing speeds are insane.

This shows what a lap should look like.

rrjwilson

I'm not convinced the traffic jam was caused by turn signal use in any way.
It seems more like simple track etiquette or basic civil behaviour rather than one method over another.
As I have said before that sort of behaviour would be marshalled away pretty quickly here.

I do however appreciate in a country like the US where hand gestures are the norm using turn signals all of a sudden would make anyone more risk averse.

stevos555

The original post was initiated to gain some ideas where to wire up the wipers and washer fluid for an elegant solution. For an outfitted caged track car this makes sense and appreciate everyone's contribution. If anyone has some pics of their switches / location, that would be appreciated. Thanks.

Dunning Kruger Affect

nothing is going to convince you

rrjwilson

Well it didn't convince the motor industry in the US.
Nothing in the video would point to a problem with signalling of any kind just bad track etiquette.

I do however agree having swapping standards from place to place is silly it should by international FIA regualtion so safety is held to an insurable standard for all.

sixshooter

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