Z_WAAAAAZ

I'm looking for some input from anyone on here running NASA TTs (specifically TT4) in NA/NB Miatas.

The long and short of it is that I want to race Global Time Attack finals in Buttonwillow this November. I messaged their event director regarding driver requirements and was told that I need a NASA or SCCA TT license to do so. SCCA doesn't do any time trials in my region but NASA is very active down here. "Sweet", I thought. I'll kill two birds with one stone, change the car setup for a couple weekends and run a couple NASA TTs this year too. I messaged my local NASA TT director and got him to bump me into HPDE 3 for my first event with them. Afterwards, I followed up with him about my plans and received a response abruptly shutting down the idea that I should run TT4 in a turbo Miata.



I'm trying to leave my ego out of this and look at it as objectively as possible. From what I've seen, there's at least a handful of people on this site that have competed in TT4 in NA's/NB's. My lap times aren't anything to write home about but they'd place me in lower-middle pack in TT4. I'm not expecting to podium, I'd like to just get out there and compete.

I'm just confused on where to go from here or if I should scrap the NASA idea altogether. The director has an NA Miata set up for TT5 (and might be biased because of that), but I'm not willing to detune my car to make it fit into TT5. And if the director doesn't want my car running in TT4, that just rules me out from racing it in NASA.

Can anyone who's competed at GTA or NASA TTs chime in with their experience and/or any advice on how to proceed if I want to get my foot in the door for NASA TT4? I know I can just get the NASA TT license and never use it, since my ultimate goal is to race GTA. However, I'd like to use the darn thing in NASA too if I'm going to go through the trouble to get it.

thebeerbaron

iTrader: (1)

I'm not familiar with that particular director, but the attitude sucks.

ST4/TT4 are essentially "Spec 46 M3" because that's the easy, known approach, IMHO.

I'm building my car to the rules of 4 and I expect to get my doors blown off because I'm in a very competitive region and I'm a novice. That doesn't mean I'm not going to try, or that I'm not going to have fun doing it.

Come play at a NorCal event if you can. George occasionally shows up here with a turbo Miata. Even though Ian races with the dark side, he's a Miata guy.

You've found one sucky person. There are plenty of other people in NASA who are friendly and welcoming. Just come on out, get your laps in, and have fun.

Edited to add: the director doesn't decide where your car gets classed, unless the rules say otherwise. Fill out your classification form for ST/TT4, submit the documentation, and you're golden. If he doesn't like it, he can protest, but unless you're breaking a rule, he's got no leg to stand on.

Z_WAAAAAZ

Yeah, I think the attitude is what tripped me up the most. I'm still relatively new to the competition-style track organizations but my experience with everyone else at NASA has been friendly and welcoming.

Sounds like you and I are in the same boat. Rookie here too and I don't care if I get my doors blown off as long as I'm at least somewhere IN the pack and not multiple seconds behind it haha.

I appreciate the quip regarding classification. It never occurred to me that if your car fits inside the rules: yep, it fits inside the rules. I'm going to keep working on getting my license, enter my car in TT4, and deal with any speedbumps once I get there.

I'm still working on getting my van set up for towing but once it's dialed in, I'll definitely come up for an event at some point. I've raced mountain bikes at/around Laguna Seca for years, would be rad to finally drive the track there too.

Arca_ex

iTrader: (2)

That director sounds like a dumbass.

Turbo Miatas have competed and have also done well for themselves in TT4 and ST4 in the past when set up properly and driven competently.

You can just disregard what he has to say, work your way from HPDE3 up to getting a TT license and you can submit your classing and compete in TT4 regardless of his (idiotic) opinion.

It seems like he might just be trying to recruit more drivers into his own class as well, but I just looked at the compliance database for this year and last year for every region and he's nowhere to be found... so I wouldn't ask him for advice on properly submitting your classing information either lol...

Z_WAAAAAZ

Yeah, sounds like I'll be sidestepping the dude then haha. I didn't want to doubt or show disrespect since I'm still somewhat new to all this but his viewpoint seemed pretty nearsighted.

My car is set up somewhat properly and driven somewhat competently. Hopefully I'll improve both of those aspects this year but it seems like it'll be enough to get me into the mix. I figure a more badass driver with a dialed in Miata would be a decent threat in TT4.

Thanks to both of you guys for bringing up the fact that the director won't have a say in whether my car is allowed to compete or not. That's the most valuable information I could have asked for from this thread haha.

I'll be out with NASA at Big Willow next weekend. Hopefully I can have him follow me for a few laps and get the ok to move into HPDE 4 after that.

rjacobs

Wonder what he would say to the few guys running V8 miata's in TTU classes...

"your chassis isnt good enough"...

WTF...

thebeerbaron

iTrader: (1)

He shouldn't have any say in that either. That's up to your HPDE3 leaders.

Steps to being promoted out of HPDE3 (coming from a guy who has intentionally stayed in HPDE3 for a long time... because reasons)

1) Obey the flags
2) Drive the line
3) Follow the passing rules
4) Don't go off or spin
5) Don't be an ***

You can be slow as **** and still get promoted to 4 as long as you're following these rules. The memes/tropes are real - people in big fast cars show up all the time thinking they're hot ****, driving fast, and ready for HPDE4... only to get called out for ill-advised passes, blowing flags, and putting wheels off.

You want to be the completely unremarkable driver. Drive perfect laps, not full-send, dancing-on-a-knife-edge laps. The HPDE3 leaders will have no qualms promoting you.

Z_WAAAAAZ

Alright, I just realized I crossed my wires here. Our HPDE 3/4 director and TT director are both named John. I thought I’ve been speaking to TT director John. The John in the email above is actually HPDE 3/4 John. Doesn’t change that his opinion doesn’t matter, but good to know nonetheless.

At any rate, I’ll have to talk to him to bump up to HPDE 4. Unremarkable driving, I can do that. Even on my best day, my driving could be described as unremarkable.

My first NASA track day, they mixed us with HPDE 4 and I was wondering why so many people in 4 were just making themselves traffic. Kinda dawned on me that day that getting bumped up was about exhibition of safety rather than speed. That’s good, I’m glad ability to stay on track and pass safely is prioritized as opposed to who’s willing to drive ***** to the wall.

Arca_ex

iTrader: (2)

Actually the V8 guys in TTU are usually getting beaten by cars in classes that are much lower... that's a specific scenario where the chassis is actually a pretty big limitation. And if they're winning TTU with a V8 Miata it's because nobody else that is fast is showing up.

rjacobs

I never said "winning" but running TTU... I dont follow any kinda of TT racing(NASA or SCCA) so I wouldnt know who is winning or losing or whatever. Just that there are guys running Miata's all the way up in TTU and according to the guy the OP is communicating with I am sure he would have an issue with it.

I think Johnny C is running in TTU and maybe Bronson(not sure on this). SuperMiata has run a TTU car. I'm sure there are others(one guy in particular I am thinking about, but I cant think of his name). Again, I dont know whats competitive and whats not or why these folks run in TTU vs. some other class.

codrus

There's absolutely nothing wrong with running a Miata in TT4. Maybe it's competitive, maybe it's not, but if you don't care then why should he? As long as it's legal to the rules and properly safe, you can run any class you like. It seems a strange attitude for a NASA official to take (group leads are technically officials, I believe). That said, if we give him the benefit of the doubt perhaps it was just badly-worded surprise that someone would want to run TT4, combined with a desire to have more people to run against in the TT class that he uses?

I'm not sure of the details, but George said that after Saturday qualifying a couple weeks ago he had to convince timing and scoring that yes, he really was running ST4. They had thought there must be a paperwork error because he was driving a Miata, so surely he couldn't be in ST4.

The faster TT and ST classes rules are so open that building a car to the limit of those rules is VERY expensive. My impression is that folks who are running Miatas in TTU/etc are just out to have fun and putting it in the "run whatcha brung" class because they didn't particularly care about rules when they were building it. The winning "car to have" in TTU is probably a purpose built sports racer of some kind.

--Ian

Efini~FC3S

iTrader: (4)

Completely ignore that guy.

Run your car in TT4 if that’s what you want to do.

My guess is he was trying to increase TT5 car counts in a stupid roundabout way.

Directors have zero input on car classing…that’s for you and the rule book to decide.

Arca_ex

iTrader: (2)

Yeah it's because the cars don't fit into other classes, sometimes because of certain modifications or they just can't be bothered to do a compliance dyno and just want some lap times. Also Johnny's car is a tube frame car that I think has been lengthened. The limitations I talked about is exactly why V8 Miatas are not at the front of the pack in high power classes, and the only reason that Johnny has season championships and wins in TTU when he was driving his own car is because he out participated everyone. You could do the same thing in a Honda Odyssey.

cnano8

iTrader: (1)

If your car fits the rules for the class then run it. He might have been trying to say you’re not going to be competitive in that class. If that’s the case then clearly their BOP between classes is fu*ked and they need to revise that. Over the years there will be a setup or chassis that is dominant and in that case it should be sandbagged a bit if it’s clearly too strong (ala spec 46 m3).

flier129

iTrader: (7)

Lol he's trying to get more ppl into TT5.

Scaxx

Checking in as v8 miata dude. Our cars suck at most any level they get placed at because the chassis does become a limitation at a certain point. No matter what people want to tell themselves to make themselves feel better about building the car, as it turns out, miata is not always the answer. That said, v8 cars make neat noises and are lots of fun, don't get me wrong. They're just not generally competitive at the level they get placed if actual competition shows up.

icantlearn

Hi, I'm the "George" that is getting brought up here. I run my NB in ST4 and I think I am doing OK for my region (top 5 in NorCal region). The car can be competitive but do you need to drive the **** out of it. OSG, MK60 are my next steps with the car and if they do what they say, I should be running up front (or very close to it). Im running a RC1/RR + more boost combo at 246whp avg. I really, really don't think the 215whp + r7 will work, I barely keep up with the s54 cars as it sits.

You might have better luck assuming your competition isn't as sorted as ours up here (National winning cars).

Blkbrd69

I guess I need to stop running NASA TT3 ?? Yes I am getting beat up by "optimized" C5 Z06 Corvettes which are easier to optimize for the class but I'm having a blast, and not doing so bad.

Class your car where you want and run with it. TT4 is a great spot for a turbo or supercharged Miata, several in Florida.

The rules, driver and tires (purple crack) will determine outcome.

Move up the HPDE ladder and get your TT signoff. You can always run TTU until you finalize tune and setup.

Z_WAAAAAZ

You guys are rad. Thanks to everyone who reached out and gave their feedback. I really appreciate it.

I'll continue to work my way up the HPDE ladder and hopefully be eligible to snag my TT license after NASA's Buttonwillow event next month. Gonna ask the HPDE director in my original post to follow me around for a session at Willow Springs this weekend and give me the ok to move into HPDE 4.

As stated before, I really just want to be somewhere in the pack. With my previous experiences in other forms of racing, I've always had the most fun getting to know the competitors I'm closest to in speed and seeing how we all stack up against each other on any given weekend. I still have plenty to optimize on the car and it will be making more power later this year, but I'm not concerned about being at the bottom of TT4. As long as I'm not DFL by seconds, I'm going to be having fun.

George (nice to finally know who everyone's referring to haha), thanks for the input regarding my TT4 setup. My plan is to run something similar to yours eventually. I definitely won't be staying at 210whp for competition. My plan was to be somewhere in the 240whp range like yourself on 200tw tires. I'm running 225 RT660s on 15x9s right now and probably won't be going to 15x10s and 245s for a bit. If it's cool with you, maybe I could hit you with a couple classing questions once I'm closer to competition and have figured out the right questions to ask.

codrus

I'm planning to be there for the BW event. I'll be renting a seat in a Spec E46 with Legacy for the WERC endurance race Saturday night, and I'll probably bring my M3 down to run ST4 on Sunday as well.

--Ian