do you guys prefer the stock shifter or a short shifter for the track? - Page 3 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 03-29-2012, 07:58 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
lol @ more work at a reduced ratio. I'm going to take my floor jack, take half the handle off, move the fulcrum in, and try to jack the car up. That should work with your analogy. If I'm getting Cs, you're fucked.
Hustler, you really don't understand how it works.

The classic ebay "short" shifter is nothing more than a shorter throw without changing the actual fulcrum point. Most of these shifters only make the distance between 2-3, 4-5 shorter without actually affecting the throw and are more for bragging rights than anything.

When you change the the actual fulcrum point, by raising it... you increase the speed at which the gear selector goes from 1-2, 2-3, 3-4 etc., but leaving the actual **** in the same place. "short shifter" really is a silly name for it because a properly designed one (like the MR) where the fulcrum point is changed, usually adds length to the height of the shifter in the cabin. You can make a short shifter with the same "throw" but with a more precise gear change. Which is what a real short shifter does.

Sure, like you mention, if you raise the fulcrum point and leave the shifter at the stock height it will require more force to change the gear.
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Old 03-29-2012, 09:06 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
lol @ more work at a reduced ratio. I'm going to take my floor jack, take half the handle off, move the fulcrum in, and try to jack the car up. That should work with your analogy. If I'm getting Cs, you're fucked.
.....as the cliff notes stated....retarded and would not understand. Time for your family to stop imbreeding so you can have hope to get the averge IQ's over 55
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Old 03-29-2012, 09:07 AM   #43
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Hustler, you really don't understand how it works.

The classic ebay "short" shifter is nothing more than a shorter throw without changing the actual fulcrum point. Most of these shifters only make the distance between 2-3, 4-5 shorter without actually affecting the throw and are more for bragging rights than anything.

When you change the the actual fulcrum point, by raising it... you increase the speed at which the gear selector goes from 1-2, 2-3, 3-4 etc., but leaving the actual **** in the same place. "short shifter" really is a silly name for it because a properly designed one (like the MR) where the fulcrum point is changed, usually adds length to the height of the shifter in the cabin. You can make a short shifter with the same "throw" but with a more precise gear change. Which is what a real short shifter does.

Sure, like you mention, if you raise the fulcrum point and leave the shifter at the stock height it will require more force to change the gear.
I'm just glad there's someone that understands.....
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Old 03-29-2012, 09:14 AM   #44
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C's get degrees that get them management jobs at Starbucks. .
This was directed at Hustler(retard) and I'm sure he works there or something similar.

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Originally Posted by FatKao View Post
It's pretty clear you have a background of engineering shitty solutions since your solution didn't solve the original problem of shortening the throw. Can you please explain how the 12"-2" lever provides a shorter throw on the 12" side than the 8"-3" lever on the 8" side?.
I could show you but that would take a lesson in trigonometry/geometry and I just dont have time to break it down and draw pretty pictures for you.

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tl;dr
You can't get the same work out if you put less work in.
Please show me where work was used in any part of the math above? But just to let you know no work was lost, there is just more leverage used and that's all I will say. Not going through a lesson in physics for the peanut gallery.
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Old 03-29-2012, 09:17 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by falcon View Post
Hustler, you really don't understand how it works.

The classic ebay "short" shifter is nothing more than a shorter throw without changing the actual fulcrum point. Most of these shifters only make the distance between 2-3, 4-5 shorter without actually affecting the throw and are more for bragging rights than anything.

When you change the the actual fulcrum point, by raising it... you increase the speed at which the gear selector goes from 1-2, 2-3, 3-4 etc., but leaving the actual **** in the same place. "short shifter" really is a silly name for it because a properly designed one (like the MR) where the fulcrum point is changed, usually adds length to the height of the shifter in the cabin. You can make a short shifter with the same "throw" but with a more precise gear change. Which is what a real short shifter does.

Sure, like you mention, if you raise the fulcrum point and leave the shifter at the stock height it will require more force to change the gear.
I understand that, driven one in a racecar, and it does not make it "smooth out shifting" because you're still doing the same amount of work...and shortening the throw will require more force, period. I understand you can change either side of the fulcrum point and adjust throw or required force, but you're not going to shorten the throw and shorten the force needed to engage each gear. You're also not going to change the "notchiness" with a shift lever unless you lengthen the throw.
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Old 03-29-2012, 09:53 AM   #46
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No, it won't. It's all about leverage.
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Old 03-29-2012, 09:55 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Boost Joose View Post
This was directed at Hustler(retard) and I'm sure he works there or something similar.



I could show you but that would take a lesson in trigonometry/geometry and I just dont have time to break it down and draw pretty pictures for you.



Please show me where work was used in any part of the math above? But just to let you know no work was lost, there is just more leverage used and that's all I will say. Not going through a lesson in physics for the peanut gallery.
A lever and what you guys are discussion basically boils down to physics. That is why FatKao is referring to less/more work. And he is right, no matter what if it takes X amount of work to shift a gear, you will always have to get that same amount of work out on the other side of the shifter (ie into the trans/shift fork/etc.).

As far as physics is concerned all you are playing around with is force applied and the distance it is applied over (you are changing the fulcrum also, but that simply changes the ratio of two distances and how much each force is weighted). Ultimately, it will still be the same work in and same work out.
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Old 03-29-2012, 10:17 AM   #48
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No, it won't. It's all about leverage.
No ----. Making the throw longer or shorter is only going to change the effective "throw" of the shifter and not going to change the notched feeling of the shifter. If xyz member here can't get it into 5th gear or whatever, its because of his aim, not an issue with lever advantage. Boost Juice keeps throwing numbers at me because he thinks I'm retarded. I never doubted the concept of leverage, I doubt that changing the lever advantage by adjusting the fulcrum point or by moving the top of the shifter higher/left/right is going to make it any easier to find gears. This is what happens when people accept the advice of someone with a Miata that has 500hp in boxes or that hasn't been created yet, who's never been on a track, and who gropes homeless males in the night. We should have a policy that rep ratings below -100 can not post in the technical forums.
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Old 03-29-2012, 10:21 AM   #49
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I have a feeling we are both arguing about different things.


Regardless, Bob seems to like it and feels it makes a difference.
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Old 03-29-2012, 10:22 AM   #50
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I could show you but that would take a lesson in trigonometry/geometry and I just dont have time to break it down and draw pretty pictures for you.
Please tell me how you would use trig when working out mechanical advantage on levers. I'm dying to hear this.

You won't give a lesson in physics because you clearly don't understand the elementary high school level physics involved here.
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Old 03-29-2012, 10:28 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Track View Post
Ultimately, it will still be the same work in and same work out.
Exactly, and like I said I did not do an equation for work(Energy) I did it for a moment(torque). People, please get your $hit straight before coming to the table. Like I said I'm not a damn physics tutor here so stop contesting me unless you KNOW WHAT YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT!

Cliff notes:
Read here if you're new to physics.
http://www.racquetresearch.com/units.htm
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Old 03-29-2012, 10:29 AM   #52
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Please tell me how you would use trig when working out mechanical advantage on levers. I'm dying to hear this.

You won't give a lesson in physics because you clearly don't understand the elementary high school level physics involved here.
You are clearly a "C student". Let us know when you've spent some time under the hood of the TOP SECRET Neon.
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Old 03-29-2012, 10:31 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by FatKao View Post
Please tell me how you would use trig when working out mechanical advantage on levers. I'm dying to hear this.

You won't give a lesson in physics because you clearly don't understand the elementary high school level physics involved here.
How about you prove me wrong instead?

I'm interested to see this....I've dont my "work" now you do yours.

Edit:

Last time I checked you were asking me to show you how the throw was shorter and now you're asking about mechanical advantage of levers? I've already shown the mecahnical advantage in my original post if you can interpret math and know physics(static and dynamic) termanology. Please, STFU. Yes, hustler, that goes for you to. Your resulting to mockery of a turbo neon manifold clearly shows your ignorance.
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Old 03-29-2012, 10:37 AM   #54
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So you're suggesting that adjusting the fulcrum point on the shifter will improve the way the slider and for slide onto the gear cogs? That's not really the way a transmission works, lol. The synchronizers, cogs, sliders, and hubs don't care or know you've changed the fulcrum point.
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Moments, and no I'm not talking about when you and you dog get together for some fun.

M=Fxd

The longer the fulcrum arm the more force applied at the other end(connected to tranny) with less effort. Go take some high school physics
From your post, the same quote...changing the shifter fulcrum is not going to change the way the transmission "guts" work. You can build an oil-derrick like structure for the fulcrum that sits 10' above the car, and change gears from a helicopter 200' above and it's not going to change the way the slider engages the cogs on the hub. If the gears grind or can't be found (like 5th in my car", then the only thing adjusted shifter geometry is going to appeal to is a personal preference in percieved lever position. Now go fist yourself.
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Old 03-29-2012, 10:40 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Boost Joose View Post
How about you prove me wrong instead?

I'm interested to see this....I've dont my "work" now you do yours.
Yes, go expend time and energy disproving negatives. No on ever argued leverage concepts with you, we argued that leverage adjustments do not make-up synchronizer, slider, fork, and hub problems. Sure, there could be a friction variable, but if the are friction problems so severe that a stock shifter doesn't work, increasing force through leverage is not a recipe for success.
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Old 03-29-2012, 10:44 AM   #56
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I have a HUGE *****.
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Old 03-29-2012, 10:44 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
From your post, the same quote...changing the shifter fulcrum is not going to change the way the transmission "guts" work. You can build an oil-derrick like structure for the fulcrum that sits 10' above the car, and change gears from a helicopter 200' above and it's not going to change the way the slider engages the cogs on the hub. If the gears grind or can't be found (like 5th in my car", then the only thing adjusted shifter geometry is going to appeal to is a personal preference in percieved lever position. Now go fist yourself.
Wow, the IQ shows itself again...

Short and sweet:
-guts dont change, effort does, leverage does
-if you dont understand, give up, please
-go to the local university engineering/physics/math dept and ask/learn, please
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Old 03-29-2012, 10:58 AM   #58
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After reading all these posts I think people just keep arguing different concepts. I will agree that the short shifter did not alter the guts of the transmission and will assume that the reason I no longer miss 5th and have the perception of smoother shifts is due to the change in the position of the shifter which allows me to use my whole arm with increased leverage that gives me better control, or aim as hustler put it, while making it easier to power through the notchiness which might effectively give me the perception of a smoother shift. It really doesn't matter. All I was trying to state is that the MR SS kit has made my driving experience much more pleasurable. Sorry if I offered flawed logic as to how it accomplished this.
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Old 03-29-2012, 11:08 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Boost Joose View Post
Wow, the IQ shows itself again...

Short and sweet:
-guts dont change, effort does, leverage does
-if you dont understand, give up, please
-go to the local university engineering/physics/math dept and ask/learn, please
I know that when I can't find 5th on the track, I kick it into place because the problem is the shifter, not the gear-selection components of the transmission.

"Is a synchronizer causing grinding? YOU NEED MORE LEVERAGE!!!"
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Old 03-29-2012, 11:08 AM   #60
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After reading all these posts I think people just keep arguing different concepts. I will agree that the short shifter did not alter the guts of the transmission and will assume that the reason I no longer miss 5th and have the perception of smoother shifts is due to the change in the position of the shifter which allows me to use my whole arm with increased leverage that gives me better control, or aim as hustler put it, while making it easier to power through the notchiness which might effectively give me the perception of a smoother shift. It really doesn't matter. All I was trying to state is that the MR SS kit has made my driving experience much more pleasurable. Sorry if I offered flawed logic as to how it accomplished this.
Never let facts get in the way of a good rant.
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