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Old 02-21-2013, 10:28 PM   #1
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Default DTC-60 vs XP10

Searched around as much as possible and pored through some long brake-related threads but I haven't really found solid info on this exact subject.

I've been getting lots of front brake fade in the second half of sessions.
Current setup is 1.8 XP10 front / 1.6 Porterfield R4 rear

I've got a line on a 4-wheel BBK that should deal with heat wayyy better than my current setup and am adding a prop valve.
Now I'm shopping for pads for the new calipers and would love to try the much cheaper Hawk DTC-60 than get another set of XP10. I intend to run the same pad all around, as advised by Emilio because I have rear aero.

I run a street tire (RS-3) for my class, and braking grip is it's biggest weak point. I have been told that with a more aggressive biting pad than the XP10 it's going to be near impossible to keep from locking them up. Advice I've gotten is stick with the XP10 or similar.

1)How does the DTC-60 stack up against the XP10? Ideally, I'd like the same bite and modulation ability as the XP10 so I can avoid lock-up, with the same or, ideally, better heat tolerance.

2) Is the DTC-60 super fickle about not sharing the friction surface with other pads like the XP10 is? I am getting the BBK with XP8s in them, which would be great to use to/from the track and then swap the Hawk's in in the pits, but if they will not like this, I'll just leave the DTCs in all the time (Yes, I know Andrew says the DTC-60 is not recommended for street use but it's mostly just highway miles with almost no brakes to/from the track)

And so I turn to you guys

Thanks for any input and insight you can provide!
-Ryan

Last edited by ThePass; 02-21-2013 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:59 PM   #2
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DTC-60 has a lot more friction, feels like it takes more heat, but pedal feel is totally different but the difference in manageable.

I've swapped between PFC-01 and DTC-60 without noticing any negatives. I drive on the to and from the track, or back when I'd go out for a joy ride on DTC-60.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:48 AM   #3
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DTC-60 is not fickle, but I don't really think the xp10/8s are. Carbotech will throw a fit. I have switched to xp8s, and xp10s to hawks on the same rotors. After a session of bedding, I couldn't tell a difference vs. xp8s on clean rotors or xp10s on clean rotors (which also require a session to bed). If you do notice a big difference, you may want to consider switch rotors at the track also.


I drove my xp8s and xp10s on the street, no experience with the DTC-60s there. I wouldn't hesitate to run some track pads if you can handle the noise. I would try it out on a backroad, if you feel comfortable with them in a panic stop test, then run them.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:54 AM   #4
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Can't comment on the XP10s, but the DTC-60s are fine on the street. I drive my car back and forth to the track on them, even in the rain, and have never had an issue stopping on cold brakes. I haven't really had any fade issues with them either, but I'm at stock power.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:46 AM   #5
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Thanks for the replies.

From trackspeed's website, it's not an issue of them not stopping in the cold, the issue is how badly they eat the rotor when cold. Don't want to eat up the rotors. This kit uses the standard 11" Wilwood rotor, so ~$80 per friction surface to replace. Not bad, but still don't want to have to do it too often.

But, it seems like the consensus is that it should be OK to use the XP8 on the street and autocross and then swap to the DTC-60 when I get to the track. Which is great news, was hoping the pads that are coming in the calipers would be useful
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:56 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
I've swapped between PFC-01 and DTC-60 without noticing any negatives.
I've heard of a few guys running the PFC-01 but don't know much about it, and actually one of the pad setups that used to be used in the kit I'm getting was PFC-01 front / XP10 rear.
Is the PFC-01 way more aggressive than the DTC-60? Sounds like you're running the PFC at the track and then using the DTC for the casual stuff?? If so, the PFC must be pretty serious

-Ryan
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:31 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePass View Post
I've heard of a few guys running the PFC-01 but don't know much about it, and actually one of the pad setups that used to be used in the kit I'm getting was PFC-01 front / XP10 rear.
Is the PFC-01 way more aggressive than the DTC-60? Sounds like you're running the PFC at the track and then using the DTC for the casual stuff?? If so, the PFC must be pretty serious

-Ryan
Get a bias valve and run the same pad front and rear.

I run DTC-60 for everything. They are a pretty similar pad but the DTC-60 makes the pedal feel a little harder, I think the DTC-60 is easier on rotors, but hte PFC01 probably has more torque rise with temp.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:01 PM   #8
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Excellent thanks for the info. Sounds like DTC-60s are going to be the answer, convenient since I love their price, especially for the ones that fit the Dynalite caliper.

I paid $300 for a set of Carbotechs for my OEM brakes

Now pads only cost $200 for a set of DTC-60 for Wilwood front/Rx-7 rear. Win!

Upgrading from ATE blue to Motul RBF-600 while I'm at it.

Getting the prop valve as a package deal with the BBK so that's covered, and I also just ordered the Wilwood adjustment **** extension that runs a cable from the prop valve to a remote **** that mounts in the cockpit. Can't wait to have a man's braking setup
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:18 PM   #9
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Get Alcon temp strips for the calipers. I found that my front calipers peaked at ~310*f with the turbo, rears at 480-510*f depending on the track. So I switched to Ate 200 which is half the price and I think it's less compressible.
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:08 PM   #10
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I expect the rears to run nice and cool as well because I'm doing 11" vented Wilwood rotors with aluminum hats on all 4 corners.

I'll log the temps as you suggest, if it indeed looks like the RBF-600 is overkill I may switch back, but for now I'm taking the 'kill it with fire, shoot it 40 times, tie a cinder block to it and throw it in the ocean" type of approach to making sure I don't have any more brake fade issues in the future

edit: Was thinking about it further, if you were close to 510 in the rear, that's pretty much knocking on the door of the dry boiling point for ATE. And as I understand it, the real-world boiling point for your fluid is going to be somewhere between the wet and dry boiling point depending on how fresh it is and air exposure, even if you bleed all the time it's not going to be perfect, and especially if you don't bleed often (which IIRC you don't), it will be closer to the wet boiling point. Wet for ATE is only 396*. You're N/A now so probably it's not an issue one way or the other but, having headroom instead of running close to the boiling point sounds comforting to me.

-Ryan

Last edited by ThePass; 02-22-2013 at 07:19 PM.
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:10 PM   #11
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I run DTC-60's on my car (11.75 BBK) which sees much more street than track. I only have about 1k miles on them and one HPDE but they dont seem to chew my rotors up too bad. They dust like hell and the dust rusts on to your wheel, so if you dont garage your car and it sits in the rain GOOD LUCK.

They still bite like hell cold too where as I have noticed my friends XP10's are much weaker until they get warmed up (granted he is on stock caliper/rotor).
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Old 02-23-2013, 10:30 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePass View Post
edit: Was thinking about it further, if you were close to 510 in the rear, that's pretty much knocking on the door of the dry boiling point for ATE. And as I understand it, the real-world boiling point for your fluid is going to be somewhere between the wet and dry boiling point depending on how fresh it is and air exposure, even if you bleed all the time it's not going to be perfect, and especially if you don't bleed often (which IIRC you don't), it will be closer to the wet boiling point. Wet for ATE is only 396*. You're N/A now so probably it's not an issue one way or the other but, having headroom instead of running close to the boiling point sounds comforting to me.

-Ryan
I forgot to add that adding some zip-tied ducts pointed at the caliper really helped lower temps to ~400. I'd break 500*f on heat-soak after stopping. On the track, the pedal was always firm but I don't know what that temp was until after I parked the car.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:07 AM   #13
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I'm in love with my DTC60s. I daily drove on them for a good while too. Surprisingly squeal free.
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Old 03-03-2013, 11:25 PM   #14
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Carbotech fan here but I here some people who like the DTC60s. The turnoff for me is the corrosive dust from the Hawks and they tend to eat rotors more than the Carbos
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