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Old 05-28-2014, 03:57 AM   #1
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Default Enduro pad suggestions

We've had some brake problems with our 2010 enduro car, we can't get pads to last even for shorter (~4 hours) endurance races. We had two test days on some pagid enduro pads and they were great, but difficult to come by in our caliper shape. Since they were running low we had to resort to EBC yellows (yeah, lolz) for our first race and promptly chewed right through them (literally at the backing plate) in 1 hour and 45 mins. Second race we had hawk HT10s and ate through 75% of the pad in ~4 hours and a bit. We do have some DTC60s laying around for front/rear, will these hold up better than the HT10s? Are they that great of a pad? We have another 4 hour race coming up in a couple of weeks and a 12 hour race in July and we finally need to win First race DNF due to no pads left, second race we had to retire with an overheated differential.

Details: 2010 NC-FL, 2 liter, six speed box and clutch pack LSD. Has ABS (which we are planning to ditch), runs a spec 225-45-17 tire (which on paper is about 1-1.5 secs slower than a R888 in the same size) on 17x8 wheels and weighs about 2500lbs wet. (yeah, pudgy, I know). Ducting for the front brakes is in place, but might need some upgrading. Unfortunately there's no budget right now for big(ger) brakes. Dusting and pad wear suggests something like a 80/20 front bias which will likely be cured by removing ABS and adding a propvalve.

On the plus side: this thing is fast. We can put a hurting on the entire field by 1-3 secs a lap depending on pace. We are mixed in with VW Golf TDI endurance cars, Seat Ibiza diesel enduros (you don't get those I think), the mandatory E30 bmw and the GT86.

TL;DR: will DTC60s be magic enough for an enduro car that's on the heavier side.

Pic stolen from other thread for relevance:

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Old 05-28-2014, 04:59 AM   #2
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We've had really good luck with PF08s on the bmw e30 we run crapcan with. No ducting, stock rotors and calipers, 225/45/15 Rivals. We can do 3+ events on one set of pads.

I heard good things about the Carbotech RP2 also.
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Old 05-28-2014, 11:13 AM   #3
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Performance Friction makes a good endurance pad as well as Cobalt. Check to see if they make one for the NC.
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Old 05-28-2014, 07:02 PM   #4
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Cobalt do, not available locally though. PF doesn't have any (or I can't search). Any comments on DTC60 longevity? We do have those in the shop currently so might as well try them and go for the third DNF in a row
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Old 05-28-2014, 09:37 PM   #5
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Carbonne Lorraine make long lasting pads RC6E is their endurance pad
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Old 05-28-2014, 09:44 PM   #6
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Cobalt pads are worth it, we've run 24 hour enduros on 1 set of cobalts on stock NA miata brakes.
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Old 05-29-2014, 11:45 PM   #7
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The ABS is killing you. Disable it ASAP
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Old 06-02-2014, 01:42 PM   #8
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Ever tried Carbotech ? They have an enduro compound too, RP2 wich I think 949 crew's used for Thunderhill 25h. And get rid of ABS as Andrew said and save weight !
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Old 06-02-2014, 01:50 PM   #9
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the Pagid rs29 is a very popular item with the mx-5's that run Continental tire
PAGID U-8082 YELLOW RACING PAD - RS29 COMPOUND
PAGID U-8077 ORANGE RACING PAD - RS44 COMPOUND

the RS29 Compound is very consistent and long lasting. you will enjoy the feel.

Cj wilson & Freedom-autosports run them.
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Old 06-03-2014, 04:44 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by joyrider View Post
Ever tried Carbotech ? They have an enduro compound too, RP2 wich I think 949 crew's used for Thunderhill 25h. And get rid of ABS as Andrew said and save weight !
It's not weight. If the drivers is pushing hard enough to engage ABS, the pulsing wears pads faster. We learned that in 2011 and stopped using ABS at the 25 because if it. We still use it in short (3-6hr) enduros. on/off switch on the dash of any team car that has ABS.

RP2's were good. XP24's more bite and almost the same wear. We go too fast for any pad to last 25hrs though. Every year we have gone, we were turning laps under the existing lap record at 18-23 hrs. So we just want a pad that will last comfortably past the halfway point then schedule for it.
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Old 06-03-2014, 04:50 PM   #11
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The ABS is killing you. Disable it ASAP
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
It's not weight. If the drivers is pushing hard enough to engage ABS, the pulsing wears pads faster. We learned that in 2011 and stopped using ABS at the 25 because if it. We still use it in short (3-6hr) enduros. on/off switch on the dash of any team car that has ABS.

RP2's were good. XP24's more bite and almost the same wear. We go too fast for any pad to last 25hrs though. Every year we have gone, we were turning laps under the existing lap record at 18-23 hrs. So we just want a pad that will last comfortably past the halfway point then schedule for it.
Yes, I suggested the ABS delete earlier in the season. We're wondering how the NC-FL will bias brake balance with the system still in place but disabled through a switch. Basic plan was pull all ABS crap and replace with fresh lines from master cylinder with a bias valve to the rear brakes like in our '01 enduro car.

Will suggest the RP2s. Since we run a spec tire that's ~1-1.5 secs a lap slower than the R888 (which you all hate but we like), I'm not sure we want a pad with super high initial bite and no ABS.

I'm just a mechanic, no driver so my authority is limited
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Old 06-03-2014, 11:18 PM   #12
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I was about to suggest Carbotechs, but I'm not close to the same league as some posting in this thread, but I know the where we saw in 3+ hours, but I'm also a big fan of the feel/modulation for the Carbos
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Old 06-04-2014, 10:34 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z31maniac View Post
I was about to suggest Carbotechs, but I'm not close to the same league as some posting in this thread, but I know the where we saw in 3+ hours, but I'm also a big fan of the feel/modulation for the Carbos
From the last IMSA race we went to, teams weren't running carbotechs due to longevity problems. They couldn't make the compounds last long enough. Emilio sated the same problem a few posts above. The Padgid RS29 on Ganassis 01 DP car lasted for 18 hours. Mind you this is a car that laps road atlanta in 1:10 and a standard NASA-ST2 car laps road ATL at 1:32. the DP data was from last year, when the DP cars were still running Iron rotors. It was also the time that PFC released the 08 compound to compete with the pagid yellows(rs29).
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Old 06-04-2014, 11:13 PM   #14
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Pagid yellows are great if you can keep your brake temps in their operating window. In my experience if you go over their operating window the pad life goes south in a hurry. If you can't properly cool your brakes and keep the temps in check then the pagids probably won't be great for you.

I don't know if you can get Project u pads where you are (looks like there are 3 distributors in Europe) but the best pads I've tested as far as pad life and super high brake temp resistance is the Project mu Racing Carbon Ceramic H21 pad. Operating range on these pads is 200-980C, which is the highest I found. We were seeing temps approaching 1000C on our Grand AM teams and the only pads that could live at those temps were the Carbotech XP24s and the Project mu H21s. We basically melted the Pagids...

More info here ---> PMU Racing The world's finest racing brake pads

There's only one vendor in the U.S. that can sell the Project mu racing pads and as of last year, almost all of the NASCAR teams in the US were using the Project mu H21 pads. I've tested a lot of pads and the Project mu's were the best and the Carbotech XP24s were 2nd.

It's great that Ganassis could get their Pagid's to last for 18 hours, but that's a real race car with real racing brakes and proper engineered brake cooling. I bet there brake rotor temps aren't anywhere near 1000C. Unfortunately not all street car based touring cars are so lucky (to have proper racing brakes that is).

rambling rambling rambling
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Old 06-05-2014, 10:38 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
Pagid yellows are great if you can keep your brake temps in their operating window. In my experience if you go over their operating window the pad life goes south in a hurry. If you can't properly cool your brakes and keep the temps in check then the pagids probably won't be great for you.

I don't know if you can get Project u pads where you are (looks like there are 3 distributors in Europe) but the best pads I've tested as far as pad life and super high brake temp resistance is the Project mu Racing Carbon Ceramic H21 pad. Operating range on these pads is 200-980C, which is the highest I found. We were seeing temps approaching 1000C on our Grand AM teams and the only pads that could live at those temps were the Carbotech XP24s and the Project mu H21s. We basically melted the Pagids...

More info here ---> PMU Racing The world's finest racing brake pads

There's only one vendor in the U.S. that can sell the Project mu racing pads and as of last year, almost all of the NASCAR teams in the US were using the Project mu H21 pads. I've tested a lot of pads and the Project mu's were the best and the Carbotech XP24s were 2nd.

It's great that Ganassis could get their Pagid's to last for 18 hours, but that's a real race car with real racing brakes and proper engineered brake cooling. I bet there brake rotor temps aren't anywhere near 1000C. Unfortunately not all street car based touring cars are so lucky (to have proper racing brakes that is).

rambling rambling rambling
We were hearing about project mu coming on strong into nascar. We were also hearing that they weren't as consistent as the PFC 01 compound. That the drivers would request the PFC 01 for short tracks (example, Bristol). But for the super speedways (Daytona) they would switch up to project mu. The project mu had less drag. that 's good for a track that you never use your brakes, and horsepower is king. **Do keep in mind this is all information heard second hand, and we have not done any testing with project mu pads.**

As far as the Pagids melting down. That would be the first we have heard about that happening. The majority of our Pagid sales belong to the PCA Porsche Club of America. Half the field there runs Pagid the other half runs PFC. We do go to the races for field support. We haven't had any problems with the pads reaching thermal capacity. Do keep in mind this is all non-professional club racing. The cars range from ex grand am race cars, to street cars. Most of the “Entry level” drivers are harder on brakes, and will generate higher temperatures than an experienced driver will. The only problem we have noticed where on the caymans and with the PFC 97 compound. On big tracks (Road Atlanta, Seabring) the 97 generated so much heat that it would bend a backing plate. The 97 is a low TQ compound and generates lots of heat on a road racing. It's a dirt and rally compound. After we switched the pads out to the 01 the temperatures came down and problem stopped happening.

Like I said before the Padgid is the pad of choice the the factory MX5 teams. The cars that race in Continental Tire series have oem calipers, and oem sized rotors. The rules mandate that is what they need to run.
OG Racing sponsored driver Liam Dwyer just took home a victory on those pads.

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Old 06-08-2014, 10:52 AM   #16
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As far as the Pagids melting down. That would be the first we have heard about that happening.
We tested the Pagids at COTA last year. All of my testing / data is on the CTSCC Civic Si's so my experience may not apply to the OP's question. While testing at COTA the Pagid engineer told us the specific compound we were testing (I don't remember exactly what compound, but they were yellow) didn't really like temperatures above 1200F. We were seeing peaks over 1500F and sustained temperatures well above 1200F. So yes, we basically "un-sintered" the pad material. On our car, at COTA, the Pagids were the second worse pad compound we tested in regards to pad life. Only the Cobalt XR1 had a shorter pad life. In the same test the Carbotech XP22 and XP24, and the Project u had the longest pad lifes, the Project u's having quite a bit more than any other pad compound.

I did a lot of brake testing / development last year for the Civic Si's in Grand AM enduro racing. We set up an awesome brake temp measuring and datalogging system for testing, and like I said we were seeing peak temps approaching 1000C, even on tracks like Mid-Ohio that aren't generally "hard" on brakes. We had maximum brake ducting per the rules and ridiculously fancy carbon ducting both at the rotor and at the fascia.

Anyway, at 1000C peak brake temps the Project mu and the Carbotechs were the only pads that could survive, the Project mus having 30-50% more life than the carbotechs. Our brake temps were basically above the sintering temps for the other pad compounds (Cobalt, Hawks, Pagids, etc.) and the pads would basically fall apart. We never tested any PFC compounds, and I have no experience with them.



Quote:
Originally Posted by OGracing
Like I said before the Padgid is the pad of choice the the factory MX5 teams. The cars that race in Continental Tire series have oem calipers, and oem sized rotors. The rules mandate that is what they need to run.
I'm quite familiar with the CTSCC rules and the brake packages specified for all of the ST cars. We did a pretty thorough study of all of the ST car brakes and the MX5 had one of the "best" brake packages. That's based on thermal mass capacity of the brakes and pad area versus competition weight. The BMW's and Porsches also were high on the list. The Civics were/are way behind. Total thermal capacity and pad area versus weight is significantly worse. This contributes to our extremely high brake temps. I don't know what the CJ Wilson and Freedom brake temperatures are but I'm guessing they are significantly lower than ours.

Do you know if the CTSCC MX5s have any sort of Motorsports ABS programming? The SCR for the MX5 doesn't have anything listed but they are allowed the Bosch MS ecu, I don't know the capability of that ecu but maybe it can do ABS also (I kind of doubt it).

P.S. The CTSCC ST race winning car from last night was running on Project mu pads.

TO THE OP:

Sorry for the slight thread derailment. Like other's have mentioned your problem is likely being caused by the ABS. Over use of OEM abs in motorsports applications generally leads to extremely high brake temperature spikes. The ABS pulsing like mad puts a ton of heat into the brake system. Like others (and yourself) suggesting the interim "fix" might be to disable ABS. Personally, for endurance racing and for rain races, ABS can be a god send. I think the ideal "fix" for your situation would be to get a motorsports grade ABS system, I don't know if Mazdaspeed offers anything but a reprogrammed ABS modulator would likely help immensely. Not of those things are probably allowed in your series though...
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:00 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
We tested the Pagids at COTA last year. All of my testing / data is on the CTSCC Civic Si's so my experience may not apply to the OP's question. While testing at COTA the Pagid engineer told us the specific compound we were testing (I don't remember exactly what compound, but they were yellow) didn't really like temperatures above 1200F. We were seeing peaks over 1500F and sustained temperatures well above 1200F. So yes, we basically "un-sintered" the pad material. On our car, at COTA, the Pagids were the second worse pad compound we tested in regards to pad life. Only the Cobalt XR1 had a shorter pad life. In the same test the Carbotech XP22 and XP24, and the Project u had the longest pad lifes, the Project u's having quite a bit more than any other pad compound.

I did a lot of brake testing / development last year for the Civic Si's in Grand AM enduro racing. We set up an awesome brake temp measuring and datalogging system for testing, and like I said we were seeing peak temps approaching 1000C, even on tracks like Mid-Ohio that aren't generally "hard" on brakes. We had maximum brake ducting per the rules and ridiculously fancy carbon ducting both at the rotor and at the fascia.

Anyway, at 1000C peak brake temps the Project mu and the Carbotechs were the only pads that could survive, the Project mus having 30-50% more life than the carbotechs. Our brake temps were basically above the sintering temps for the other pad compounds (Cobalt, Hawks, Pagids, etc.) and the pads would basically fall apart. We never tested any PFC compounds, and I have no experience with them.
Holy COW 1000c on the rotors??? What where your rear temps? You might have a problem. We would notice a spike in heat if your brakes have a drag problem, or the rear bias is non existent. I would check the Front calipers to make sure the pistons aren't binding.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
I'm quite familiar with the CTSCC rules and the brake packages specified for all of the ST cars. We did a pretty thorough study of all of the ST car brakes and the MX5 had one of the "best" brake packages. That's based on thermal mass capacity of the brakes and pad area versus competition weight. The BMW's and Porsches also were high on the list. The Civics were/are way behind. Total thermal capacity and pad area versus weight is significantly worse. This contributes to our extremely high brake temps. I don't know what the CJ Wilson and Freedom brake temperatures are but I'm guessing they are significantly lower than ours.

Do you know if the CTSCC MX5s have any sort of Motorsports ABS programming? The SCR for the MX5 doesn't have anything listed but they are allowed the Bosch MS ecu, I don't know the capability of that ecu but maybe it can do ABS also (I kind of doubt it).

P.S. The CTSCC ST race winning car from last night was running on Project mu pads.
I'm not 100% sure what the rules are on ABS on the CTSCC. I don't see IMSA outlawing aftermarket calipers to keep costs down, but allowing a $10k ABS system. Racing series don't always follow the path of common sense, so i could be wrong.

We always encourage disengagement of abs systems on race cars, Especially OEM ABS systems. The only exception to that would be racing in the rain. a toggle switch on the dash can do the trick. getting a rotor to thermal capacity and then having the brakes go ON/OFF/ON/OFF is a very fast way to break something.
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Old 06-10-2014, 10:15 PM   #18
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Holy COW 1000c on the rotors??? What where your rear temps? You might have a problem. We would notice a spike in heat if your brakes have a drag problem, or the rear bias is non existent. I would check the Front calipers to make sure the pistons aren't binding.
Yes, we were surprised at the temperatures too. And it explained why we had massive brake failure at Daytona in 2013 while enjoying a commanding lead. No, the brakes weren't dragging and the cars have an HPD motorsports tuned ABS which means the rear brake bias is tuned for racing.

This wasn't a one time thing. We recorded brake temperatures at almost every track CTSCC visited, and it wasn't just COTA where we saw rotor temps approaching 1000C. Like I said before, even at Mid Ohio we were seeing those temperatures, and Mid Ohio is "easy" on brakes.

We replace the calipers multiple times a year, so I seriously doubt piston binding was/is the issue. I think the issue is shitty OEM brakes + aggressive motorsports ABS tune + stickier tires (compared to pre 2013 tires) + high speeds which = HOT brakes. The biggest of those is the shitty OEM brakes.

I can go on and on about this but alas, it may not be so pertinent to the OP's question.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OGRacing
I'm not 100% sure what the rules are on ABS on the CTSCC. I don't see IMSA outlawing aftermarket calipers to keep costs down, but allowing a $10k ABS system. Racing series don't always follow the path of common sense, so i could be wrong.
Oh that is EXACTLY what they do. Specify shitty (cheap?) oem brake packages and then allow SUPER expensive ABS systems. I know that in the ST class, at a minimum the Civic Si, Hyundai Genises, Porsche Boxter and Porsche Cayman are all specifically allowed aftermarket (i.e. motorsports) ABS systems. I'm not sure the exact price but my understanding is the HPD tuned ABS is $3500-4000.

BUT, when we ask IMSA / Grand-AM for simple Stop-tech front brake upgrade they tell us to go pound sand. Guess which one is 100x cheaper in the long run...

Quote:
Originally Posted by OGRacing
We always encourage disengagement of abs systems on race cars, Especially OEM ABS systems. The only exception to that would be racing in the rain. a toggle switch on the dash can do the trick. getting a rotor to thermal capacity and then having the brakes go ON/OFF/ON/OFF is a very fast way to break something.
In my experience:


Motorsports ABS > No ABS > Commuter Car OEM ABS


Not all OEM ABS systems are abhorrent on the race track, and I'd much rather have a motorsports tuned ABS system then none at all (especially at tracks like Sebring).

I'm not sure how the NC miata guys disable the stock ABS (i.e. with the toggle switch) but it's getting more and more difficult to do that. I know on the Honda's the ABS is married to the traction control and stability control and friggen everything else, so it wasn't as simple as just pulling the proverbial ABS fuse.


enough blabbing from me...

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Old 06-21-2014, 05:42 PM   #19
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Today was our 12 hour enduro so the night before we pulled the abs fuse to see where we'd end up bias wise. Fronts still locked first so that was fine. Dtc60s were a bit bitey for our low grip spec tire so lock up galore the first few laps. After that brakes were ok. Wear was ok. Leading in class until our shifter broke and we had to retire the car. Again. Diff started leaking again as soon as we pulled the car into the box. Just as well. It's been a 18 hour day so far and I'm fed up now.

Thanks for the advice. Disabling abs seems to work so far. Will look into more efficient ducting and pulling all abs stuff and plumbing in a bias valve.
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Old 06-22-2014, 03:47 PM   #20
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Thanks for the advice. Disabling abs seems to work so far. Will look into more efficient ducting and pulling all abs stuff and plumbing in a bias valve.
Sorry to hear about the mechanicals. I'd recommend retaining the ABS but still plumbing in the prop valve. Best of both worlds then. In the wet, ABS is a game changer. Even simple Miata ABS is enough to just drive past anything under braking from 5 lengths back. In a wet enduro, the brakes would not be worked hard enough for ABS related wear to be a concern.

So basically you fully optimize your dry braking non-ABS balance and keep ABS as an additional tool for sprint races and the wet.

A heat race at nationals a few years ago. Wet track at start, dry line developing towards the end. I had ABS, apparently no one else did.

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