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Old 07-03-2012, 07:29 PM   #21
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400/250 springs are WAY too soft for a pig like a MSM. You are firmly on the bumpstops in every corner with no suspension travel left. Hell, my 550/350 setup is probably too soft for me and my car is likely a lot lighter than yours.

All your other money is probably wasted if you don't get Xidas. I hear they even made Hustler fast. Can I get a witness?
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Old 07-04-2012, 04:00 AM   #22
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Wow, so many MSM topics my head is spinning... or due to beers.

The reflash is a Chiptorque program retailed by BEGi in the US. They socket a chip to the OEM board and 'engineer' the maps based on what you have bolted on. I don't think it is up to real race application. We have found there are EXTREME variations between MSM's stock ECU programming. Some pull great and some fall on their face transitioning between open and closed loop. My car was one of the 'bad' computers and the ex mrs_hyde had an '04 that felt amazing running through the gears. This was observed in back to back drives when both cars were stock.

Portland doesn't have a true carousel like T2 at Thunderhill or Pacific but I can picture exactly what you are describing while feathering the throttle. I'm afraid all the reflash will get you is deltas and interpolations of a crap factory tune.

The MSM Bilsteins are way over dampened for soft springs. It might feel stiff but it is really not. Besides safety upgrades, real suspension should be your next move.

You can better brake performance with better pads and save the 11.75" upgrade for over the winter. You can't simply pull the ABS fuse. The *** will get all wiggly coming down from triple digits without the electronic proportioning. Been there, done that.

Mobius is spot on with the oil cooler. You are pushing 300* without one and all that heat will eventually work its way into parts of the engine that pull timing.

There are dozens of things that will make the car faster and more reliable. What are you allowed to do by class? That is the real question. If you can't do a MS but a OEM ECU is required, I would expect a reflash is in the grey area at best. Bend the rules to get a competitive advantage and make the competition committee address your innovations over the winter.

IMO the MSM should be a real advantage in some of the stock classes because you can sneak a turbo into a bunch <2.0l NA competition but it doesn't seem to work that way. I'm interesting in your progress though because my own car has so much MSM under the '90 chassis. Subscribed!
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Old 07-04-2012, 10:03 AM   #23
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May have missed it, but didn't see anyone address your low clutch pedal.

With the clutch, it's just basic maintenance. Make sure the master and slave are good (you can swap both in less than an hour -- cheap -- I can almost guarantee that the slave needs replacement). Braided steel line here doesn't hurt. The actuation height with my ACT is at the stock level, but I did need to refresh components to get there.
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Old 07-04-2012, 01:48 PM   #24
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My big FM clutch is very near the floor. Are lots of guys getting OEM pedal height or is the norm on a heavy clutch that the pedal is closer to the floor? I have new hydraulics on both end, braided line in place of the pigtail and have bled with vacuum, traditional and gravity. I'm going to build a motive pressure bleeder to see if I can get more pedal.
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Old 07-04-2012, 04:45 PM   #25
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He has an RX-7 oil cooler, see the bottom of post #6.
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Old 07-04-2012, 06:16 PM   #26
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The clutch is probably simply an adjustment to the rod as outlined in bold type in the instructions from FM who apparently get that pretty often (I just installed the FM2 kit in an MSM last weekend).

I have FM sways front (full stiff) and rear (full soft) with 550/350 springs (Bilstein Hard S shocks) and even with only moderate tires I get full travel to the bump stops in some corners. See pic from Homestead Miami Speedway:



And I'm just out screwing around for fun in HPDE. Look at the difference between the outside front tire and the inside one! My springs are about at the limits for my shock valving or I'd go stronger. And my home track is Sebring which is really rough so I can't do too much more with it unless I get more capable shocks that can handle the higher rates (like Xidas).

If you are really racing and not just playing around, go to 949Racing and get the Xidas and at least 700# front springs and whatever they recommend for the rear. Those guys just finished first in two different classes at Thunderhill with their Miatas (I just read about it in the NASA newsletter).

For a testimonial, find any post made by Hustler where he talks plainly about the difference he found when he switched to his Xidas.


EDIT: BTW, stock MSM springs are only 215/158 lbs/in for comparison. You are always on the bumpstops in corners and that isn't giving you any suspension compliance to hold the tire on the track as it encounters bumps.
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Old 07-04-2012, 06:53 PM   #27
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My clutch travel with the FM clutch is no different than stock.
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Old 07-06-2012, 03:42 PM   #28
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Midpack: When I origionally looked into it, the vendor did not know if MS had a way around the MSM's immobilizer circuit. The BEIG unit seemed an easy route. I was hoping for something I didn't need to mess with. Assuming they will get it right, perhaps at a later date I may get a stand alone if/when I need more horsepower. Right now I need more control (brakes and suspension) rather than more power.

Soviet/Curly: Yes the Notto's seemed to get greasy by a dozen laps. Thanks for getting me on track with the pressures; I thought it was just the tires.

Hornetball/Sixshooter: I will try lengthening the rod to take all of the freeplay out of the pedal. I suppose the next step would be to mill the flywheel and pay more attention to "setting up" the clutch.

OK. Next conference race at PIR is mid-August.

So far on my list is:
1)transmission shifting: - lengthen clutch rod and change trans fluid to Amsoil.
2)tires greasy: drop psi from 40 hot, to mid thirties hot.
3)surging at mid-corner when feathering: disable/unplug tumbler vacuum line. Also, a little rich? AFR's are 10.5-11 when under boost... UPS the ecu back to chiptorque?

Now here are the main issues: I need more confidence in the braking zone and more control thru the corners to actually engage the race. Until then, I am only lapping.

I've got 2k left in my budget for this season. I don't want to waste $ by spending a lot on buying something that I'm just going to replace next year.

From what I have gathered from the forum: for control in the brake zone, I will need trackspeed's bbk. At a minimum, I will need to install steelbraided lines, finish my ducts and switch to carbotech 10's up front. To cure the wobble when at threshold braking, I will need poly or derlin bushings to keep the suspension from stretching.

From what I understand from the forum: for control in the corners I will need get set up with xida's. At a minimum, I will need to up my current spring rates (700/325) as well as use FCM bump stops.

I think that Emillio uses a large front bar and a MSM rear. I currently have the Eibach set-up that SM uses. I do still have the MSM rear bar. I have adjustable links.

With this in mind, any recommendations to get the most efficient use of my time and racing dollar?
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Old 07-06-2012, 04:54 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtred View Post
From what I have gathered from the forum: for control in the brake zone, I will need trackspeed's bbk. At a minimum, I will need to install steelbraided lines, finish my ducts and switch to carbotech 10's up front.

This is a very good start, and best of all, you'll need it whether or not you upgrade to the TSE setup. Except the pads, but they're a wear item anyways. However, if you're a "do it once and forget it" kind of guy, just get the TSE kit now.

Actually, now that I think about it, the TSE kit includes SS lines for the front. Any other aftermarket (FM, Goodwin) SS line set will NOT work with the Wilwood calipers you'd be upgrading to.

So just think of the TSE kit as a VERY expensive front SS line kit. And they can hook you up with the rears too.
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Old 07-06-2012, 05:04 PM   #30
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This is how I justified the TSE upgrade over the sport brakes using Hawk brake pads.
Sport brakes:
4 sets of $120 pads per year
3 sets of $60 rotors (pairs) per year
=$660 in front sport brake costs per year

TSE kit
2 set of $60 pads per year (less than that)
1 set of $60 rotors per year (actually less than that)
=$180 in front TSE brake costs per year

After basically two years you'll break even in brake part savings. Not only that, the car will do everything better, with zero compromise if you have 9" 6ULs, which any self-respecting man has on his car. If you've chosen to run $180 Carbotech pads, well, that's your problem rather than mine.
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Old 07-06-2012, 05:55 PM   #31
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I had relatively good luck with XP10's, braided lines, good fluid, and good ducting on an otherwise stock '94 brake setup...it worked well but I cracked a rotor after two weekends and Goodwin was (still is?) offering such a kick *** deal on the 11" Wilwood BBK I just went with it (I like TSE a lot, but not enough to justify spending $400 more on their kit)

Since you can't afford good suspension with that budget I'd get a BBK, bushings, the 949 Sway bar kit, and some stiffer springs for the suspension you currently have.

You won't need the springs once you replace your suspension with xida's next year, but you can sell them for to close to what you pay for them, especially if you can find them used.

Last edited by Handy Man; 07-06-2012 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 07-06-2012, 11:00 PM   #32
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If you still have the MSM rear bar and some functional adjustable endlinks, you just need the 1.125 bar from 949 and the brace/block if you don't have it.
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Old 07-08-2012, 02:32 AM   #33
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The MSM abs always seems to wag the tail under hard braking. I just let it do it's thing.
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:25 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Handy Man View Post
I had relatively good luck with XP10's, braided lines, good fluid, and good ducting on an otherwise stock '94 brake setup...it worked well but I cracked a rotor after two weekends and Goodwin was (still is?) offering such a kick *** deal on the 11" Wilwood BBK I just went with it (I like TSE a lot, but not enough to justify spending $400 more on their kit)

Since you can't afford good suspension with that budget I'd get a BBK, bushings, the 949 Sway bar kit, and some stiffer springs for the suspension you currently have.

You won't need the springs once you replace your suspension with xida's next year, but you can sell them for to close to what you pay for them, especially if you can find them used.
Enjoy your $100 replacement rotors.
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Old 07-08-2012, 03:30 PM   #35
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What are your corner weights? If more than 2-3% off, you may notice that in braking.
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Old 07-08-2012, 03:46 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Handy Man View Post
(I like TSE a lot, but not enough to justify spending $400 more on their kit)
We swap rotors twice a year on all the race cars. Race on our kit for 2 years and you get the increased pad life and significantly improved pedal feel for free.
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Old 07-08-2012, 03:51 PM   #37
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Quote:
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We swap rotors twice a year on all the race cars. Race on our kit for 2 years and you get the increased pad life and significantly improved pedal feel for free.
He's spending 300% more on pads and 250% more on rotors so there is no money left over for superior braking. Even when I post and clearly demonstrate cost effectiveness, they get hung up on the initial cost.
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:37 PM   #38
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He's spending 300% more on pads and 250% more on rotors so there is no money left over for superior braking. Even when I post and clearly demonstrate cost effectiveness, they get hung up on the initial cost.
They use the same pads.

And Sav, 949 sells 11" rotors for $81 shipped, you sell 11.75" rotors for $31 + $27 shipping = $58, so its actually only a $23 difference... even at 2 rotors a year it will take 17 years to make up that difference
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Old 07-08-2012, 11:41 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Handy Man View Post
They use the same pads.

And Sav, 949 sells 11" rotors for $81 shipped, you sell 11.75" rotors for $31 + $27 shipping = $58, so its actually only a $23 difference... even at 2 rotors a year it will take 17 years to make up that difference
Tell us more about buying brake rotors one at a time.
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Old 07-09-2012, 12:07 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Handy Man View Post
They use the same pads.

And Sav, 949 sells 11" rotors for $81 shipped, you sell 11.75" rotors for $31 + $27 shipping = $58, so its actually only a $23 difference... even at 2 rotors a year it will take 17 years to make up that difference
  • I pay $60 per box of front pads, you know how I feel about Carbotech.
  • Double the savings since cars use two rotors up front.
  • I doubt the 11" rotor lasts as long as the .75" larger rotor.
  • Feel my 290*f front caliper temps all over you.
I'd love for someone with experience on the 11" and 11.3" brakes to compare temps and pedal feel.
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