Instructors come in
 

Saw this video on youtube while trolling for videos of this weekends races. Short story, newish driver has a modified CTS-V, grabs an instructor and is ripping TWS CW. The brakes fail at the end of the back straight coming into 6 at 120+. The car was going off and the instructor yanked the wheel as it was leaving the track. This is a wooded area with a access road and a concrete wall with no runoff. The youtube user obviously feels that the instructor caused more damage than if the car had gone off straight. I'm going to leave my comments out at first. Discuss...

Youz immbeaddded tha viddier rong/ derz a spase wher thar shodendt b

Withount being able to see the straight in question, it is hard to say if the instructor did the right thing or not though. Having said that, the instructor has the right to self preservation, and if he thought that best way for him and the driver to get out unscathed was to veer off, then thats ok. When you track your car there is an inherent risk that you, somebody else, or a mechanical part will fuck up and you'll be out car, life or $. I get that is sucks though, but the car seems to be drivable, and thats always nice.

I was at a track day when an instructor was driving a student's car and rolled it with the student in the right seat. I've instructed a couple of times too - not my favorite thing to do since I have to pound so much Dramamine to keep from puking that I can't really drive during my own sessions. I've never had a student go off so I don't know what my instinctual reaction would be.

I also have a teenage driver in the house and I have yanked the wheel 4 specific times I can think of. I'm sure that avoided a collision at LEAST once. This is part of the reason she doesn't have a license yet.
-h

Guy's a tard. 'Nuff said.

The what ifs are irrelevant. He's an instructor, the guy's a student. End of story.

Instructors touch no part of your car besides the seat belt and seat, period.

^^ this.

How much experience do you guys have instructing, out of curiousity?

Having been off a few times with students (and in a wall with a student once), in certain extreme circumstances grabbing the wheel is the right thing to do especially with a noob who is doing/about to do the wrong thing and make the situation worse. The student NEVER likes it, but when you know you kept them out of a wall or from rolling or whatever... Even outside of that, survival instinct kicks in sometimes. No brakes at 120? Yep, I'm not just going to sit there if I think I can improve the situation.

That being said, I don't see how its at all possible to judge this video without being able to see outside. I'm totally unfamiliar with TWS also, so I don't know what the runoff looked like.

<--- Has grabbed the wheel one time.

About 6 track days now. And I dread it. I only do it because I am one of the only people in my club (which hosts the track days) with a race license. I would never do anything t hat would put liability on the club, especially touch a steering wheel. If it goes in the wall so be it. It's not my car, and I'm not the safety steward who has to do the incident report. That being said, our track is fairly low speed, most cars won't hit 80mph however my miata tips 100mph. There are a lot of walls and almost no run off so nearly any mistake = wall regardless.

I'd have to agree - I think the instructor did it out of panic as we are always told that the driver is to always be in control of the car and is always responsible for his/her actions and outcomes. I have grabbed a wheel to correct/show the line, but never before getting permission from the driver - and not while going balls out either - usually 1st time noob out on the track that's has no clue what the line is, under yellow.

I've only got 8days under my belt. My 1st time out, the 1st half of the session was with my instructor's hand on the wheel guiding me through the course - and he's a porsche school instructor.

In a wall isn't the end of the world. Several of my offs I was just sitting there with my hands clasped together like nothing could possibly have gone wrong. Sideways into the END of a wall, with me on that side is another story. Like I said, extreme circumstances. For me that's usually head-on into an immovable object at a high speed or T-boning/getting T-boned.

<--- For comparison's sake, have been instructing for ~5 years.

post pic of track and corner/straight/off in question.

Of course the instructor should never touch the wheel. The reality is that going off in that corner at over 100 means a totalled car and with a stock seat and belt without head restraint it means serious injury. Sure, the instructor probably should not have grabbed the wheel, but it saved him a trip to the hospital or worse and the car is not ruined.

I don't know the corner, but I have had an instructor grab the wheel from before. he was stopping me from turning in early during my first event ever.

I would have to see the corner, it seems the instructor said "you couldn't go straight" in that corner. Is there no run off back there?

he also says later, "sorry...", and "i've gone off straight before"

at least he instantly justified himself.

it seems to me the instructor had no idea the brakes were lost and was still trying to turn in for the corner. you see the driver start to panic for a sec after the RPMs start to drop and thats probably getting close to turn in, instructor grabs the wheel and spin spin sugar.

anyone have a video of that corner were we can see the outside? I can't tell which one it is from the youtubez videos.

I am not an instructor btw, I am just an investigative reporter.

They were running clockwise from T7 to T6. There's a building of some sort out past the tree line (maintenance shed for mowers I think).

Google maps link for the out buidings and whatnot. If you zoom in all the way there's some tracks heading for the wall.
http://g.co/maps/xnrfn

Corner numbers
http://www.texasworldspeedway.com/im...%20diagram.jpg

I've had my brakes more or less glaze over at around 120mph at the end of a straight. luckily I had enough left to stop and braking around the outside of the corner. But even when I expressed to him that my pads were fading horrendously and I had to drive differently, he didnt quite get it. He kept arguing that I was getting off throttle too soon and braking in the worng places...he later noted this in my logbook. All he cared about was the spec miata lines/brake zones. But I was trying to keep my speeds lower consider I was hitting 130 in spots a spec miata only hits 85 at best and there was no reason to go WOT for 1/2 mile only to die a horrible death.

THAT sounds like a shitty instructor. Student says, "my brakes feel funny" or "my car isn't stopping" you dial it back ASAP.

hmm, I don't see why he can't just drive straight off. looks pretty clear with the exception of that one tree

I looked at Googlemaps and saw what looked like a decently open area. Based on what Hustler and the other guys are saying, I'm assuming that's an old picture.

Wait... so what exactly failed in his braking system?

You can't see the topography. This track is so fast that you need to ride around on a bicycle and decide where and how to go off.

Also, I've had total brake failure 3 times, as in zero pedal pressure, and twice this happened at triple digit speeds. It will change the way you drive on the track and you will never trust the pedal again, and you will always check-up for pressure on the big brake zones. It's a truly horifying experience.

damn... what was the cause each time? this is always my greatest fear, especially with EVERYTHING in my braking system being aftermarket.

Pad broke off the backing plate once, a piston mushroomed and would not retract into the bore (700*f+ on one caliper), and a broken brake line. I had no problem throwing down money for the TSE "Biggest" Brake kit. It helps me relax when I'm sitting on the grid.

So, for whatever reason, going off straight is bad news there, and doing whatever to NOT go off straight is a better option. Got it.

I've never run the track that way, but I have been straight off going into T7 with a broken control arm...it was a hell of a ride but I didn't hit anything. I don't remember there being a wall or behind 6, but then again I've never run clockwise.

Still can't believe the driver didn't go for the handbrake immediately...it's saved me a few times. And instructors...No thanks.

MEATBALL RACING!!!!!!!!!!! it's a way of life.

I will say this, I have grabbed a students wheel twice. Once was at a PCA event and the student went wide and we got sideways while a new M3 was coming up the inside, we were looking at his car out the front window and I grabbed the wheel to counter steer. The second time I was in a STI and the student understeered off the track at 80mph into a grass feild and I straightened the wheel and slowly brought us back on track. I want to live, If I think I can 99% save us, I will. Most Texas tracks have 0 runoff areas, they are normally grass than some woods. At 120mph the shit gets real, real fast.

Let me ask y'all this: If I'm in my moms van and she is driving (terribly because women) and she gets in a bad situation and freezes, do I not have the right to take the wheel and avoid or minimize damage or injury? We saw 2:14 of CTS-V guys driving abilities, and for all we know he sucks at it, (not saying he does, "just saying for all we know") does his passenger (the instructor) not have the right to self preservation? Or when you get in a car in this situation do you give up a portion of that right? I do not believe the video shoes the situation in a way that we could come to a intelligent conclusion. That being said, if somebody else caused damage to my car I'd be pissed as fucking hell, and I'd probably be out of the car screaming at the instructor.

Watched the vid. That rally driver should fire his navigator.

:rofl:

isn;t that assumed?

Doesn't make it any less funny :)

i think most tx. tracks HAVE runoff area. most east coast tracks have little to no runoff before armco, tire walls, woods. having said that, there are many spots on tx tracks that have reduced runoff area. also, a 4,000lb. car going over 100mph without brakes will cover ALOT of runoff area real fast.
i went off in turn 5 going ccw last month due to oil. the back end shot out, i caught it, but was out of track so i went straight off which by the time i hit the grass i was probably at 75mph or so. i went down a hill there and came to a stop between 5-6. it steep enough of a drop that i disappeared to people on track. about 30 yards in front of me were bushes and what looked like a concrete wall or possibly highway type concrete barriers. i remember thinking that would have been bad news. i think going cw at over 100mph straight off at t6 would be bad times.

Sorry, I mispoke. We have runoff as in grass then woods. We don't have gravel traps or anything like that. So what is the braking performance of a CTS-V at 120mph in grass?

Problem I see is that in the event of an off, you want to go straight to avoid the possibility of digging in sideways and flipping. Hustler says the topography makes it bad to go straight off but doesn't add any more detail. Seems to me though that if there's a ditch of something of the sort that is bad for the car head-on, it will be even worse for the car if the car is going sideways because it could cause it to flip. Seems also that if the result had indeed been a flip, a lot more blame would be pointed at the instructor, it's just a matter of luck that he made them go off sidways and did not flip. Without a little more info about the runoff (or lack of) on that corner, hard to say which is better though.

-Ryan

It's easy to say if you've been there, on a 10-speed, hopped-up on 4-Loko and seen it. The instructor did the right thing and lived to tell about it. You guys can't see how going off outside the loop means 4-8' of air when you leave the track, there is a ditch that runs through the course for drainage, there are woods on another side, and finaly walls inside the loop.

It's like telling people to "go off straight" in #8-9 at Willow Springs, you turn through the dirt if you want the car to live.

Merely agreeing to ride along with a noob in a 400+ hp car around a track indicates some lack of self preservation, but it's a quality that you more or less need in order to be an instructor.

On the flip side, if you're a noob with a 400+ hp car and the brakes fail because you have not adequately prepared your car for the track, you most definitely forfeit any right you may have had for the instructor to not violate the sanctity of your steering wheel if he thinks it will prevent him from becoming dead. You can Monday morning quarterback it all you want but at that moment when the SHTF, most noobs simply lack the talent to recover their 2-ton car and the instructor's judgment will be better the vast majority of the time.

You said this more eloquently than I did. :)

It's hard to believe the newbs judgement when the newbs first priority of the video is to list his mad tyte mod list.

He has uber cred because he passed the other newb in a GT3. In otherwords, he can save it since he passed the mother of track cars.

Truedat.

I think you guys are missing the point. There's no doubt, at least I hope, that the instructor is a better driver than the student, and that's the point of having him in the car.

In my mind it's a liability issue. When I do track days and have driver meetings, they say the instructors are never to drive your car much less touch any controls. This is more of a reminder for the instructors, not the driver.

Once he reaches over and grabs the wheel, the driver is free to cross his arms and say "ok, everything from here on out is your fault"

Obviously what happened in the video was somewhere in between, but instructors get in the car knowing the risk. It's why I've had a few in full helmet, fire suit, and hans device as I'm sitting there in jeans and a t-shirt with my motorcycle helmet.

I have a hard time believing that if you know you might die in a certain off track excursion that you would give a fuck about liability. Life>lawsuit

And I can't say I've been in the situation, I just like playing devil's advocate, and I believe this is where the Cadillac driver is coming from.

This particular CTS-V had no brakes at all which the instructor probably didn't know at the time. On the GT3 - At some point we've all passed one being driven nervously by a rich dentist on his lunch hour. Doesn't matter how bad the driver is, it makes me smile every time! :giggle:

I believe the liability issue is up to the club. Some clubs absolutely do not want instructors touching the wheel others have no issue with it and even encourage it when necessary. I have been instructing for over 6 years now and racing for 10+ (although being a racer is very different from being an instructor). We grab the wheel when needed. I have had to take it over the years and believe the results were beneficial. We are not full time employees of the track but volunteers who go up because we love the sport (and some free track time), I would not work with a club that does not allow me to do what I feel is necessary to save 1st the people in the car, 2nd others on the track, 3rd the car. We actually do drills each spring where we are put in scenarios requiring us to take the wheel and drive the car off as needed. We practice driving the track from the passenger seat. The situation in the video I cannot speak to, I have never driven that track, was not in the car and can't see enough of what was going on. But the instructor did what he felt was necessary.

I also have never understood people taking out 400+ horse power cars to learn to drive. The students I have had in slower cars like miatas, integras, anything under 250 hp, etc learn much more than the guy (or gal) in the high end car that has a million traction controls saving them from their mistakes which are occurring at a much faster rate. (Not implying a mechanical failure in this case was a mistake) Just saying I think people need to bring a basic car out a couple times first.

I have a friend who had some experience in an EvoX on the track who recently drove a Miata out there. It was pretty interesting to hear his take on how the Evo makes decisions for you.

Excellent first post!
Grabbing the wheel as an educational tool is frowned upon, grabbing the wheel when all hell breaks loose is a different story.

Instructors have told me that they refuse to ride in CTS-Vs due to the braking system, and how prone it is to brake fade. At least one has suggested that CTS-Vs should be disallowed at track events. I have not seen many on track. Is this really a common problem with CTS-Vs?

I have instructed many different drivers in many different cars. If this was taken at one of my events, I would gather a lot more information before passing judgment and handing out discipline.

I know the C6 style brakes are garbage. I was at Hallett when that car came out and for some reasons the bolts that hold the caliper together pull out the threads and all hell breaks loose. I assume this is why 75% of the C6 I see at the track have APs.

I think there's a responsibility on the student to understand the same risk. Its totally unrealistic to assume you'll be able to go off track at 120mph with no brakes and not fuck something up. Who's he going to blame the next time it happens?

Not really a plausible idea. Soon enough you will have GT3 drivers complaining that miatas are too slow and are a road hazard. Plus who determines that the brakes are inadequate? who keeps that list? what dictates the the brakes suck? stock pads? inadequate cooling? bolts that don't stay in place?

I think it falls on the individual who brings their car out on track to take care of these issues. Its their life at risk after all.

An off in that corner can/will destroy a car. In the one off I had in that corner I managed to find one of the few paths through that did not damage my car(much). Having said that, I still went airborn in the excursion. A friend of mine was not as lucky with a brake failure in the same place and his car was totalled...

I almost went into the pond coming out of the triple-apex, CW at MSR-C. Oops.

My off was a result of going from aero to no aero in consecutive races. I destroyed my splitter putting a wheel off in turn 3 and couldn't finish the previous race. Started at the back of the pack with a bunch of no driving porsche owners and was making a mad dash to get to the front on the first lap. I was hauling ass down that back straight trying to get one last pass in before the braking zone. With aero I could easily make the pass on the inside, dive back onto line briefly hit the brakes and turn in. Without aero, lets just say it was a futile effort with very scary results. People always talk about increased cornering speed with aero but rarely do you hear of the effects on braking. Let me tell you, it has a huge impact on braking.

I've also pirouetted off track while in the passenger seat of a students car in that corner, thank god it hooked and headed toward the inside of the track in that particular incident. There was really nothing I could have done. He was a young guy and pretty good driver....he hit his braking mark perfectly, but then released way too soon, we were carrying way too much speed. He still ALMOST saved it...but almost doesn't quite cut it.

As far as the guy grabbing the wheel, hard to judge when it's not me sitting in the seat.

i realized how much my ghetto aero was working from the last 2 track days i did. i changed my wing mount to save weight and try to make the wing more effective. doing that affected the angle of attack the wing was at. i figured i'd leave it like that (flatter) maybe i didn't need that much angle. wrong! i was oversteering all over the place, especially the fast corners. after coming in and checking tire psi, shock settings and all was a good, i set the angle back how i had it, still not believing that could be it but it was. the frt/rr balance was back. i had too much splitter to not get the max help from my wing.
second time was at the nasa event @ TWS last weekend. the track had mostly dried except for turn 7 which had a little water running across it. pushing hard as it was the last session of the day for TT and TxMC, i was able to run 90-95mph with the car wiggling across the water. i should note that there was a strong headwind going into that corner as well. on my cool down lap, going maybe 75-80mph through there the car slid across the track to the top of the hill! crazy, i either needed to be going faster for the aero help, or way slower.
and lastly, we all know what happened to the sti driver who lost his wing before the uphill esses at VIR. i almost feel like attaching a whistle to my wing so if it rips off i'll hear the whistle fade away and know to slow down. lol
okay, thread derail is over.

Stop posting this shit, I have no money!!!! Don't "talk all sexy like" about aero anymore.

lol, you have $200. if not stop drinking for a week and you will. you already admitted to having a spare trunk.

Trey needs an apocalypse front end!