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Old 11-29-2011, 02:41 AM   #1
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Default Instructors come in

Saw this video on youtube while trolling for videos of this weekends races. Short story, newish driver has a modified CTS-V, grabs an instructor and is ripping TWS CW. The brakes fail at the end of the back straight coming into 6 at 120+. The car was going off and the instructor yanked the wheel as it was leaving the track. This is a wooded area with a access road and a concrete wall with no runoff. The youtube user obviously feels that the instructor caused more damage than if the car had gone off straight. I'm going to leave my comments out at first. Discuss...





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Old 11-29-2011, 02:53 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by jacob300zx View Post
Youz immbeaddded tha viddier rong/ derz a spase wher thar shodendt b

Withount being able to see the straight in question, it is hard to say if the instructor did the right thing or not though. Having said that, the instructor has the right to self preservation, and if he thought that best way for him and the driver to get out unscathed was to veer off, then thats ok. When you track your car there is an inherent risk that you, somebody else, or a mechanical part will **** up and you'll be out car, life or $. I get that is sucks though, but the car seems to be drivable, and thats always nice.
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Old 11-29-2011, 04:19 AM   #3
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I was at a track day when an instructor was driving a student's car and rolled it with the student in the right seat. I've instructed a couple of times too - not my favorite thing to do since I have to pound so much Dramamine to keep from puking that I can't really drive during my own sessions. I've never had a student go off so I don't know what my instinctual reaction would be.

I also have a teenage driver in the house and I have yanked the wheel 4 specific times I can think of. I'm sure that avoided a collision at LEAST once. This is part of the reason she doesn't have a license yet.
-h
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Old 11-29-2011, 05:18 AM   #4
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Guy's a tard. 'Nuff said.

The what ifs are irrelevant. He's an instructor, the guy's a student. End of story.
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Old 11-29-2011, 06:20 AM   #5
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Instructors touch no part of your car besides the seat belt and seat, period.
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Old 11-29-2011, 07:40 AM   #6
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^^ this.
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Old 11-29-2011, 08:46 AM   #7
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^^ this.
How much experience do you guys have instructing, out of curiousity?

Having been off a few times with students (and in a wall with a student once), in certain extreme circumstances grabbing the wheel is the right thing to do especially with a noob who is doing/about to do the wrong thing and make the situation worse. The student NEVER likes it, but when you know you kept them out of a wall or from rolling or whatever... Even outside of that, survival instinct kicks in sometimes. No brakes at 120? Yep, I'm not just going to sit there if I think I can improve the situation.

That being said, I don't see how its at all possible to judge this video without being able to see outside. I'm totally unfamiliar with TWS also, so I don't know what the runoff looked like.

<--- Has grabbed the wheel one time.
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Old 11-29-2011, 08:52 AM   #8
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About 6 track days now. And I dread it. I only do it because I am one of the only people in my club (which hosts the track days) with a race license. I would never do anything t hat would put liability on the club, especially touch a steering wheel. If it goes in the wall so be it. It's not my car, and I'm not the safety steward who has to do the incident report. That being said, our track is fairly low speed, most cars won't hit 80mph however my miata tips 100mph. There are a lot of walls and almost no run off so nearly any mistake = wall regardless.
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Old 11-29-2011, 09:02 AM   #9
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Quote:
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Instructors touch no part of your car besides the seat belt and seat, period.
I'd have to agree - I think the instructor did it out of panic as we are always told that the driver is to always be in control of the car and is always responsible for his/her actions and outcomes. I have grabbed a wheel to correct/show the line, but never before getting permission from the driver - and not while going ***** out either - usually 1st time noob out on the track that's has no clue what the line is, under yellow.

I've only got 8days under my belt. My 1st time out, the 1st half of the session was with my instructor's hand on the wheel guiding me through the course - and he's a porsche school instructor.
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Old 11-29-2011, 09:02 AM   #10
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In a wall isn't the end of the world. Several of my offs I was just sitting there with my hands clasped together like nothing could possibly have gone wrong. Sideways into the END of a wall, with me on that side is another story. Like I said, extreme circumstances. For me that's usually head-on into an immovable object at a high speed or T-boning/getting T-boned.

<--- For comparison's sake, have been instructing for ~5 years.
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Old 11-29-2011, 09:32 AM   #11
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post pic of track and corner/straight/off in question.
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Old 11-29-2011, 10:10 AM   #12
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Of course the instructor should never touch the wheel. The reality is that going off in that corner at over 100 means a totalled car and with a stock seat and belt without head restraint it means serious injury. Sure, the instructor probably should not have grabbed the wheel, but it saved him a trip to the hospital or worse and the car is not ruined.
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Old 11-29-2011, 10:25 AM   #13
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I don't know the corner, but I have had an instructor grab the wheel from before. he was stopping me from turning in early during my first event ever.

I would have to see the corner, it seems the instructor said "you couldn't go straight" in that corner. Is there no run off back there?
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Old 11-29-2011, 10:45 AM   #14
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he also says later, "sorry...", and "i've gone off straight before"

at least he instantly justified himself.
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Old 11-29-2011, 10:51 AM   #15
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it seems to me the instructor had no idea the brakes were lost and was still trying to turn in for the corner. you see the driver start to panic for a sec after the RPMs start to drop and thats probably getting close to turn in, instructor grabs the wheel and spin spin sugar.

anyone have a video of that corner were we can see the outside? I can't tell which one it is from the youtubez videos.

I am not an instructor btw, I am just an investigative reporter.
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Old 11-29-2011, 11:00 AM   #16
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They were running clockwise from T7 to T6. There's a building of some sort out past the tree line (maintenance shed for mowers I think).

Google maps link for the out buidings and whatnot. If you zoom in all the way there's some tracks heading for the wall.
http://g.co/maps/xnrfn

Corner numbers
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Old 11-29-2011, 11:04 AM   #17
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I've had my brakes more or less glaze over at around 120mph at the end of a straight. luckily I had enough left to stop and braking around the outside of the corner. But even when I expressed to him that my pads were fading horrendously and I had to drive differently, he didnt quite get it. He kept arguing that I was getting off throttle too soon and braking in the worng places...he later noted this in my logbook. All he cared about was the spec miata lines/brake zones. But I was trying to keep my speeds lower consider I was hitting 130 in spots a spec miata only hits 85 at best and there was no reason to go WOT for 1/2 mile only to die a horrible death.
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Old 11-29-2011, 11:07 AM   #18
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I've had my brakes more or less glaze over at around 120mph at the end of a straight. luckily I had enough left to stop and braking around the outside of the corner. But even when I expressed to him that my pads were fading horrendously and I had to drive differently, he didnt quite get it. He kept arguing that I was getting off throttle too soon and braking in the worng places...he later noted this in my logbook. All he cared about was the spec miata lines/brake zones. But I was trying to keep my speeds lower consider I was hitting 130 in spots a spec miata only hits 85 at best and there was no reason to go WOT for 1/2 mile only to die a horrible death.
THAT sounds like a shitty instructor. Student says, "my brakes feel funny" or "my car isn't stopping" you dial it back ASAP.
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Old 11-29-2011, 11:07 AM   #19
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hmm, I don't see why he can't just drive straight off. looks pretty clear with the exception of that one tree
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Old 11-29-2011, 11:11 AM   #20
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I looked at Googlemaps and saw what looked like a decently open area. Based on what Hustler and the other guys are saying, I'm assuming that's an old picture.
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