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Old 09-29-2016, 12:29 PM   #641
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Supermiata radiator owner here.
I run about 220whp on the track with a/c. I do have a somewhat large oil cooler that is not in the path of the radiator.
With ducting on all 4 sides I've never had cooling issues on 10-20 (1.7mile)lap sessions on 90 degree days.
I've never run an enduro race so no data points for 400 lap sessions.
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Old 10-02-2016, 01:54 PM   #642
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Default Thoughts on low, horizontal FMIC

As has been mentioned before, there are situations when the FMIC blocks airflow to the other exchangers. In my case, I'm pretty sure that is happening as running no boost on hot days, if I run A/C, CLT goes high. It could be the 37mm TOYO radiator, but I think not.

So I'm thinking about various fixes, from relocating the A/C dryer and moving the FMIC back 2", to cutting some Air Director and bumper material, to a taller, less wide intercooler that would miss the A/C dryer. BUT, this idea presents itself also.

As my intercooler is only 5.5" tall, it will fit, horizontally, in the same space taken up by the bottom the air director. If I put it that way, then the full opening of the bumper cover to the condenser become as stock. Here are pictures:






The only thing I see bad about this is when not moving, no air is forced through the FMIC, but I wouldn't think much cooling is needed then.

I have seen proposals to run a horizontal at the top, but not at the bottom.

Thoughts?
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Old 10-02-2016, 03:13 PM   #643
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Looks like that could work pretty well, depending on how you duct the intercooler outlet so that it doesn't get pressurized. Remember, forward motion tries to pressurize the air under our nose, and the shape of the Miata nose isn't much help. Even the R-package spoiler would be a big help in this regard. If you attached a flat surface to the spoiler that went back a ways to a gap, this might work nicely + give the IC some protection from below.

In for documented test results!
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Old 10-02-2016, 07:55 PM   #644
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hornetball View Post
Looks like that could work pretty well, depending on how you duct the intercooler outlet so that it doesn't get pressurized. Remember, forward motion tries to pressurize the air under our nose, and the shape of the Miata nose isn't much help. Even the R-package spoiler would be a big help in this regard. If you attached a flat surface to the spoiler that went back a ways to a gap, this might work nicely + give the IC some protection from below.

In for documented test results!
This would be my plan. Leave as-is and run with coolant re-route (maybe 2 weeks away) and judge for change. The rotate the FMIC and run again. Of course, the weather may postpone testing as it is going to get cooler soon, CO2 notwithstanding.

I thought under-car pressure might be an issue, as most race guys are adding splitters. So I could make the IC exactly horizontal and add a plate coming back from the lowest edge of the cover. This would be about 2" from the lower face of the IC, would extend to about even below the radiator and act as a vacuum creator. I think that is what you mean.
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Old 10-02-2016, 08:01 PM   #645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DNMakinson View Post
As has been mentioned before, there are situations when the FMIC blocks airflow to the other exchangers. In my case, I'm pretty sure that is happening as running no boost on hot days, if I run A/C, CLT goes high. It could be the 37mm TOYO radiator, but I think not.

So I'm thinking about various fixes, from relocating the A/C dryer and moving the FMIC back 2", to cutting some Air Director and bumper material, to a taller, less wide intercooler that would miss the A/C dryer. BUT, this idea presents itself also.

As my intercooler is only 5.5" tall, it will fit, horizontally, in the same space taken up by the bottom the air director. If I put it that way, then the full opening of the bumper cover to the condenser become as stock. Here are pictures:






The only thing I see bad about this is when not moving, no air is forced through the FMIC, but I wouldn't think much cooling is needed then.

I have seen proposals to run a horizontal at the top, but not at the bottom.

Thoughts?
I tried that a year or two ago, it didn't work all that great for cooling. Big problem for my setup was I couldn't put a large enough intercooler in that spot to have a reasonable pressure drop. If you could get a larger enough heat exchanger it has potential, but I couldn't fit anything bigger than bout 7" tall in that area and even that was a huge paint to make it fit.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/e...psj3sposnh.jpg

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/e...psoorulg0e.jpg
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Old 10-02-2016, 08:39 PM   #646
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Pat, what HP were you going for? I've not measured the pressure drop through my IC, but I plan to use the same one I have in there now. It is 5.5". Maybe I'm seeing lots of drop, I don't know. I'm only looking for 215-235 WHP from the little TD04. I assume you mean charge air pressure drop.
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Old 10-02-2016, 08:52 PM   #647
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The area where you are planning to open is a low pressure area, that intallation would reduce air pressure in front of the radiator, reduce low pressure behind the radiator somewhat and reduce front end downforce leaving you with lift at speed, the only good thing is that you will have a very cool air charge coming out of the ic, the other 3 not so good for a track car imo
%5BURL=http://s1084.photobucket.com/user/HHammerly/media/99%20turbo%20build/1BEF92D3-83EA-4164-9503-5A3D9AB54FB7.png.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j420/HHammerly/99%20turbo%20build/1BEF92D3-83EA-4164-9503-5A3D9AB54FB7.png%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5D
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Old 10-02-2016, 08:58 PM   #648
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I don't recall seeing this previously discussed, but my memory is short. Has anyone looked into an air-to-water setup? Doing some initial research on laminova intercoolers, it's going to be prohibitively expensive, but maybe the heat exchanger can be small enough to allow more airflow to the rad. GM is using that setup on the ATS-V, and Works is using it on their stage 2 setup for the toyobaru.
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Old 10-02-2016, 09:29 PM   #649
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DNMakinson View Post
Pat, what HP were you going for? I've not measured the pressure drop through my IC, but I plan to use the same one I have in there now. It is 5.5". Maybe I'm seeing lots of drop, I don't know. I'm only looking for 215-235 WHP from the little TD04. I assume you mean charge air pressure drop.
I was running the SC back then, I measured 38 PSI boost at the SC outlet pipe, and a 10 PSI drop across the bottom mounted 2" x 8" core intercooler. I posted datalogs of this in my old SC build thread, you could watch the pressure drop across it climb as the revs went up. It was making ~300whp at the time, getting rid of that crazy pressure drop got it up to ~350. My 3x12 core intercooler I run now has 1.0 PSI drop at 30 PSI boost, which is acceptable.
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Old 10-03-2016, 03:32 AM   #650
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I have a generic cxracing 19.5X6 (says for a miata at eBay) and it works great. Haven't seen higher than 118f (40 above ambient) sitting in traffic at summer with a/c.
Not so wide so it helps.
Reroute did the trick for me.
On a long 5th gear pull the water temp creeps to about 208 but drop very fast as I let off the throttle.
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Old 10-03-2016, 06:41 AM   #651
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
I don't think I have seen anyone do back to back comparisons between TSE and 949. What was posted above of the differences are probably about right. For 95% of the people the 949 is probably more then adequate. For the higher HP turbo track cars the TSE is probably a bit better due to bigger capacity.
Finally ordered a TSE radiator, hope it will cool well...
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Old 10-03-2016, 07:13 PM   #652
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It will cool the bestest. Duct it appropriately.
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Old 10-03-2016, 07:41 PM   #653
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AFM, Cxracer, and maybe a couple other people I'm forgetting, plus myself, had a rather interesting conversation with another driver who wandered up to talk to our group at [email protected] this last weekend. This particular driver had removed the undertray from their MSM because they figured that it would "let more cool air into the engine compartment" and that this would help cool the engine. I pointed out that every car in our lineup was running 225-300 HP flat out for 20-30 minute sessions with no heat issues and I could tell said driver wanted to call bullshit, but after looking at our hardware and realizing that every one of us was running an undertray they actually started asking decent questions.

I recommended they come here and read the cooling system thread. Hopefully they are reading this some time this week and find a solution to the problem
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Old 10-03-2016, 07:44 PM   #654
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Quote:
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...was running 225-300 HP flat out...
...or more

--Ian
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Old 10-03-2016, 07:51 PM   #655
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...or less. I didn't want the 1.6 to feel left out.

But it was STILL making more power than that MSM with fewer issues.
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Old 10-03-2016, 09:09 PM   #656
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The best MSM is one that has all the MSM-specific underhood bits replaced with TSE EFR goodness. And a 3" exhaust.

Sadly the MSM is a waste of money. Unless you specifically know that you want the body panels, and want to pay a premium for them, you can build a much better turbo miata from an LS NB2 for less moneys.

They do look good, though.
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Old 10-03-2016, 10:00 PM   #657
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The MSM also has a nice interior. IIRC, that's why FM builds most of their NB V8 cars out of them.

--Ian
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Old 10-03-2016, 10:30 PM   #658
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Quote:
Originally Posted by czubaka View Post
I don't recall seeing this previously discussed, but my memory is short. Has anyone looked into an air-to-water setup? Doing some initial research on laminova intercoolers, it's going to be prohibitively expensive, but maybe the heat exchanger can be small enough to allow more airflow to the rad. GM is using that setup on the ATS-V, and Works is using it on their stage 2 setup for the toyobaru.
that is what i have, run 280 hp on track days, ac condencer and the water temp stays at 210f after an hour iat's are 20 over ambient.

%5BURL=http://s1084.photobucket.com/user/HHammerly/media/99%20turbo%20build/E7121D17-3E28-46B0-8339-3303E4E1C80F.jpg.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j420/HHammerly/99%20turbo%20build/E7121D17-3E28-46B0-8339-3303E4E1C80F.jpg%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5D



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Old 10-04-2016, 08:49 AM   #659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HHammerly View Post
that is what i have, run 280 hp on track days, ac condencer and the water temp stays at 210f after an hour iat's are 20 over ambient.

%5BURL=http://s1084.photobucket.com/user/HHammerly/media/99%20turbo%20build/E7121D17-3E28-46B0-8339-3303E4E1C80F.jpg.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j420/HHammerly/99%20turbo%20build/E7121D17-3E28-46B0-8339-3303E4E1C80F.jpg%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5D
I cannot follow the photobucket link. Tried various truncated versions.

Is that an Air over Water?

EDIT: Found your build thread on this car.

Last edited by DNMakinson; 10-04-2016 at 10:27 AM. Reason: Found HH's Build Thread
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Old 10-04-2016, 10:43 AM   #660
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The build thread has no details on your ducting or the A/W intercooler work. So, yes, would like to see more pics. As you seem to have successfully used A/W, I think it merits a separate thread.
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