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Old 10-12-2018, 11:23 AM
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Threw in my 2 cents.
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Old 10-13-2018, 07:26 PM
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The more I look at the rules, the more I'm convinced this class will be dominated by miatas...
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Old 10-13-2018, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
The more I look at the rules, the more I'm convinced this class will be dominated by miatas...
The last few days we have been scheming an all-of-it build. Not decided yet.
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Old 10-13-2018, 09:44 PM
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Do it. I'd love to see some BMWs get lapped and send NASA back to the drawing board again.

Originally Posted by doward View Post
Moving the class to 18:1 actually makes dyno reclass cars easier to fit into 6 without buying parts. Those reclasses were 18.5-17.5(for a 16.5 class). Now, they're potentially spot on pending some ballast here and there with no other changes.
It doesn't really. My 2001 is 133 @ 2390 which was just about 18. With ST6's old rules I want to say I had to run 17.6 average power. For my specific car I just had to move some timing around to get there. Now I have to ballast up and pull timing. Not a big deal, but without the 944s and E36s there won't be anyone to race in my region.
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Old 10-14-2018, 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
The more I look at the rules, the more I'm convinced this class will be dominated by miatas...

​​​​​Yeah dude, our cars ballasted up will **** stomp the field..... I guess I should be happy, but I'm really salty about this displacement rule kicking lots competition to the curb.
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Old 10-14-2018, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by FatKao View Post
It doesn't really. My 2001 is 133 @ 2390 which was just about 18. With ST6's old rules I want to say I had to run 17.6 average power. For my specific car I just had to move some timing around to get there. Now I have to ballast up and pull timing. Not a big deal, but without the 944s and E36s there won't be anyone to race in my region.
So, is the 133 peak or average? If it is peak hp, depending if your rev limit is above or below 7000prm, your average will probably be around or below 130hp.
2431/130=18.7
18.7 - 0.7(A-arm) -0.4(weight) +0.4(BTM Aero) = 18 to 1
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:54 AM
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Why did you add 40lbs? As I sit.

2390/130 = 18.4
-.7 a arm
+.4 BTM
-.4 weight

17.7 I have enough timing pulled to easily cover that.

The more I think about this rule book the madder I get at it. Also, what changed that would prevent a well sorted e46/e36 from dominating?
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Old 10-14-2018, 11:03 AM
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this ruleset is BS. It blows apart PTE and gives competitive PTE cars no place to go. 18:1, no 944s or e30s, makes no sense. This sort of illogical catering to a small esoteric group is one of the main reasons why I left SCCA. It’s like they’re trying to resurrect PTF even though it had limited or no presence.
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Old 10-14-2018, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by FatKao View Post
Why did you add 40lbs? As I sit.

2390/130 = 18.4
-.7 a arm
+.4 BTM
-.4 weight

17.7 I have enough timing pulled to easily cover that.

The more I think about this rule book the madder I get at it. Also, what changed that would prevent a well sorted e46/e36 from dominating?
Going to 2431lbs requires no retuning and also bumps up to the larger tire template. At 2390lbs, you are limited to 226mm tire template (so no 205 R7 on 15x9)
Stay at 2390 and use 225 RC-1 and be at 131 avg hp for 18.04 to 1.

E46/E36 cannot run in ST6 due to the displacement rule (and horsepower).
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Old 10-14-2018, 11:38 AM
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Were none of the elegeble E46 motors sold in the US? Don't know the models all that well.

I thought we were talking about power and retuning and what was easiest for dyno cars? If I just wanted to get to the larger tires I'd run 2401lbs in a 'easiest for dyno cars' route.
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Old 10-14-2018, 12:23 PM
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^ E46 is above the 168hp limit, end of story
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Old 10-14-2018, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Dadasracecar View Post
this ruleset is BS. It blows apart PTE and gives competitive PTE cars no place to go. 18:1
As far as banning 944, e30, etc with displacement I'll agree it's bs. But anyone with a PTE miata (or other eligible car) doesn't have much to get bent out of shape over. Points build cars actually running 16.5 (not many from what I've seen) have a good bit of detuning / weight to add, but dyno reclass slots right in with about 30-40lbs. Easy peasy. Also get sways back ftw. For those running aero obviously have to go back to BTM aero, but I'd wager you weren't optimized in the first place if you used points on aero in E.
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Old 10-14-2018, 12:33 PM
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Having a full podium every month is overrated.
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Old 10-14-2018, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by cabowabo View Post
As far as banning 944, e30, etc with displacement I'll agree it's bs. But anyone with a PTE miata (or other eligible car) doesn't have much to get bent out of shape over. Points build cars actually running 16.5 (not many from what I've seen) have a good bit of detuning / weight to add, but dyno reclass slots right in with about 30-40lbs. Easy peasy. Also get sways back ftw. For those running aero obviously have to go back to BTM aero, but I'd wager you weren't optimized in the first place if you used points on aero in E.
This is a very poor rule set. I'm surprised they're biasing towards the NB Miata, considering Greg typically hates them. How many competitors were even in ST/TTF nationwide? There was the one whole car in my region that typically ran ~10 seconds off the faster TTE Miatas at Mid Ohio. To put that into perspective that would be equivalent to a guy I know with an underprepped NA 1.8, with SM suspension, on old R7's, with an engine so down on power he's getting walked by 1.6's on the straights. They're not significantly increasing the numbers in TT6, while making it less competitive (mainly due to exclusion).

We're getting worked up because this is exactly why we're not in SCCA. Everyone tailored the rules to meet some nuance that benefited their particular car. Add one new rule / year and after a few years you end up with a turd sandwich where specific cars can't even compete or can't become competitive. TTE was the only class that consistently had at least 5 cars/weekend, giving us the illusion we could win some tires. The only other class with consistent attendance in my region is TT4, which requires a whole new level of prep.

Last edited by engineered2win; 10-14-2018 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 10-14-2018, 04:25 PM
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It is entirely possible that NASA ownership had the specific goal of creating a "Miata" class. The >2.5L cars that get nerfed then all pile into 5. Big picture, it fits with their goals as a for profit business. Sound arguments to the contrary.
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Old 10-14-2018, 04:30 PM
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I had that thought as well while driving. ST6 is intended to be the class where PTF cars go to die and we should all just rum ST5. Some communication from NASA on intent would be helpful. :/
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Old 10-15-2018, 02:17 AM
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Yeah this is dumb for the most part. But at the same time I like the part where NASA is trying to consolidate into fewer classes by basically making ST6 a cemetery for PTF cars and also the loud complainers that were slow in under prepped E cars *cough*weber*cough* that never want to spend money on racecars to go faster. I think ST5 should have been 15lbs/hp though to make it a little more attainable for the people they are leaving out in the wind (e30/36/46, 944 etc), or delete the damn displacement rule.

Dyno reclassed PTE cars go into ST6 stupid easy. Competitive points cars, not so much.

My PTE reclass was PTE* base at 2430lbs and 136whp. Raw power to weight was 17.86.

For the sake of how stuff would class, lets say my average HP is 130 since my peak is 133, and we will use 133 as a cap for 3WHP of safety buffer on dyno.


To be in ST6, two options:
-.4 weight
-.7 a arm
+.4 BTM aero
18.7lbs/hp raw.

2431lbs and 130 average wheel HP cap. So cut 3HP off the whole curve and +1 lbs to game the calculation, not hard.
or
2474lbs and 133 average wheel HP cap. So add 44lbs and don't touch power. Also not hard.
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Old 10-15-2018, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Arca_ex View Post
Dyno reclassed PTE cars go into ST6 stupid easy. Competitive points cars, not so much.

My PTE reclass was PTE* base at 2430lbs and 136whp. Raw power to weight was 17.86.

For the sake of how stuff would class, lets say my average HP is 130 since my peak is 133, and we will use 133 as a cap for 3WHP of safety buffer on dyno.


To be in ST6, two options:
-.4 weight
-.7 a arm
+.4 BTM aero
18.7lbs/hp raw.

2431lbs and 130 average wheel HP cap. So cut 3HP off the whole curve and +1 lbs to game the calculation, not hard.
or
2474lbs and 133 average wheel HP cap. So add 44lbs and don't touch power. Also not hard.
Keep in mind 2451s + is -0.4 on weight. 2450 to 2251lbs is -0.5 on weight. Super picky on the weights for our cars it seems.

I much preferred the 17:1 avg over the 18:1 avg, but I can make it work. I just think the displacement rule is dumb as hell and will only hurt the class.

I might be bumping up to 5 because I may not have anyone to run against in 6!
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Old 10-15-2018, 11:40 AM
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I am enjoying this thread.
I am looking forward to tt6.
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Old 10-15-2018, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Arca_ex View Post
My PTE reclass was PTE* base at 2430lbs and 136whp. Raw power to weight was 17.86.
Out of curiosity, how were you able to run PTE? Those 7 * points plus suspension plus torsen plus tires will put you in PTD.
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