Possible for a 1.6 to be competitive in PTF/TTF with manly driving?
 

inspired by the other thread.
what is the fastest PTF / TTF Miata setup ?
let's see who can come up with fastest combo


1.6 starts at PTF**
base tire size is 215
http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/p...sification.pdf

As much as I don't like it for track duty, you would pretty much have to go with a 195 R1R and have the 5 points left over for springs/shocks. If you weren't racing in the heat, the tire should be fine. I am having a hard time figuring out a better way to do it.

Problem is you need to have 1 point for cat
Cat don't last.

PTF** +14
185/60R13 R6 +3
test pipe +1

That'd be fast, but it would suck to drive.

U still have 1 point left !!!!

I had a brain fart and miscounted the points. You have 2 points left over in my setup, so you could do the cat delete and have a point left.

Oops. Cold air intake

TTF** +14
185/60/14 Star Specs on 14x7 RPF1 -5
Xida +5
Intake/afm tuning +1
test pipe +1
Torsen swap +3

?

No, you guys are going about this all wrong.

Dyno reclass to TTF*/PTF*. Youll be looking at a 21:1 weight/power ratio.

Shocks. Springs. Tires. Take advantage of free mods thanks to your dyno reclass. You know, stuff thats actually useful, like exhaust, 4.8 R&P, losing the AFM, DIYPNP or MS3.

Ill be more than happy to discuss my setup notes via PM, but Im not posting the details. I can tell you that Im ~1sec off the lap record at VIR, 0.4 off at CMP. Thats on a car that needs more alignment development, the 4.8 still put in, the DIYPNP tuned worth a shit because its still on a stock ECU, and a brake bias valve. Its a 1/2 developed car at best, and its already knocking on the door of TTF/PTF records.

...like a VVT motor. :giggle:

Nooooooooope, Greg wont give you a F* reclass with a 1.8 supposedly.

That would make for one heck of a torque curve though. :rofl:

so 110whp at 2,320LB....

* is +7
shocks +3
springs +2
185/60R13 R6 +3
torsen +3

that's 18 points.

way I see it, this is 30whp down on PTE car, narrower tires (or 20whp down on SM), within 50LB. this is easily 2-3 seconds slower at Miller, if not more. I wonder how competitive this is.

the points system Miata is probably another 1-2 seconds slower.....

I ran the 183/13 R6 in E at Mid-Ohio nationals last fall. I don't think I'd ever choose them without the TT/PT rulebook as a constraint, but they aren't bad at all. I liked them for a track like Mid-Ohio with 3 huge straights. Less drag on the long straights, a little shorter than a 205/50/15 so you get some gearing advantage, and they're crazy lightweight- all of which would be good for a 1.6 TTF car. With my car at 2240lb, they were done after 2 laps, though. That makes me question how well they'd work for TT at a long track like Miller. You'd probably have to get it done on the first lap.

I'd suggest testing them if you haven't. If nothing else, they're super fun to play around on. My wheel/tire setup was 25lb each lol.

Need more power and tire. The 185s wont survive a 40 min sprint race, as previously mentioned, they barely survive a lap or two at Mid-O.

You need to look at some of the +7 point tires (like a 205 NT-01;) ) and drop the Torsen. Tires will gain you more than the Torsen will.

Youre right on the points car being slower too, but Id guess its more than 1-2 seconds based on my own experiences.

FWIW, good *F times at places like VIR and CMP are equivalent to mid-back marker SM times. The back of SM, GTS1, PTF and sometimes Spec 944 times are all pretty close.

Didn't think the 185 R6s would drop off so fast. Knowing that, I would look at either the 195/50 R1R (-2) or the 205/50 BFG Rival (+1). The BFG in particular is so fast that there's no way the +5 jump to an NT01 in the same size is worth it.

PTF* +7 (~111whp at 2350lbs)
205 Rivals +1
shocks +3
springs +2
OSG +3
air dam +3
=19pts

Or as a points car:
PTF** +14 (119whp @ 2350lbs)
195 R1R -1
shocks +3
springs +2
test pipe +1
=19pts

Are 205/50 Rivals, a diff, and an air damn worth 8whp?

Ive considered trying the Rivals myself, if I didnt have two sets of Nittos already. But, on your points car, theres not a snowcones chance in hell to get 119whp out of that car. Remember, youre talking about a stock 1.6, stock intake, stock exhaust, stock everything. At best, thats a 100whp car in good weather.

I think it would be interesting to see your first car though.

BRB, going to the drawing board.

SMs make 120+ on a routine basis with nothing but an exhaust. Stock AFM, stock header. They're allowed to do a little bit in the head, but a points PTE motor would be allowed more displacement and more compression. If you can't make 119whp with an .020" overbore and 9.9:1 compression in the engine, you're doing something wrong.

Youre forgetting FPR, AFM tuning, and IIRC, the compression bump and overbore are both points mods (been a while since I looked at that, admittedly). Pretty sure, based on what Ive seen of a 1.6 pro motor SM, those head mods are going to slap you with a +6 too.

Regardless, Id say that yeah, the air dam and diff might be worth the 8hp.

1.49% displacement increase (78.5mm is 1.25%) and +0.5:1 compression are no-points mods, as are valve springs/retainers (lifters must be BTM), forged pistons, and forged rods. SMs made big power before the FPR and valve job was allowed, and I would argue that AFM tuning isn't a modification of the AFM and thus wouldn't take points (and even if Greg ruled otherwise, you would just buy 20 AFMs and see which one made the most power).

I think (dont quote me) that the AFM has come up before when trying to class a SM in TT or PT classes and it was considered a points mod.

But yeah, buy 20, see which one has the extra 2hp (aka, the Danny Steyn). Same for stock ECUs for the 1.6, the SM guys pay a premium for those.

lolz @ 3 huge straights?

Where are the other 2?

in a 1.6, I would argue there are 10 straights !!!

btw, how fast is the winning PTF/TTF car compared to a SM ? or PTE/TTE ? at National.

Points will be moot. If ptf/ttf is only say 1 second slower than PTE

lol. Yeah... pretty much what william said. With 125hp, I definitely consider the pro course to have 3 long straights!

Just to ad to this... I did a very silly thing and ran skinny little STREET tires size 175s so I could downclass my 95 1.8 Spec Miata to be in PTF to get the PTF regional points for a weekend. It was horrible and I won't be doing that again unless it was the only way I could get points for my class. The problem with the little 175s was braking and cornering (pretty much what you need tires most for). I had to play this timid braking game to be able to actually stop and the turns.. well, it made my Miata feel more like a Mustang (haha). I was 10 to 12 seconds off the pace of properly tired Toyo RR 205 spec miatas. I did have lots of point and laughs as I did the weekend on donuts though!


Funny little side story though... Once upon a time there was this guy with a 2003 Miata who 'downclassed' to TTF with his tire size and he (at one time) held almost all the TTF records for the Midwest and Great Lakes regions but a 4 door FWD Infiniti G20 sedan got rid of almost all his records (usually by 5 to 7 seconds actually). His only 'standing' record right now in TTF is a track NASA Midwest has not returned to (and will not return to I'm told) so we simply didn't get the opportunity to take away that record... lol

I didn't know you can downgrade a class. How does that work?

^ It is pretty simple. You get points back (subtract points) when you downgrade the tire size and using a street tire means no + points. Needless to say, you get a lot of points to subtract using 175s ;)

I'm pretty sure you can't run below your normal base class without getting a dyno reclass.

^ Incorrect. You might want to read the PT rules again and take a look at the top of page 18 where it clearly talks about tire points. (including how you can add or subtract points)


http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/p...ring_rules.pdf

Tire width points assessed or points credited are determined by the difference between the
width of the largest tire on the vehicle and the assigned base tire size as follows:
Equal to or greater than: 10mm +1, 20mm +4, 30mm +7, 40mm +10, 50mm +13,
60mm +16, 70mm +19, 80mm +22, 90mm +25, 100mm +28, 110mm +31, 120mm +34, etc.
Equal to or less than: -10mm -1, -20mm -4, -30mm -7, -40mm -10, -50mm -13, -60mm -16,
-70mm -19, -80mm -22, -90mm -25, -100mm -28, -110mm -31, -120mm -34, etc.

lol @ thinking Al-Queda sympathizer Greenbaum will let this happen.

:hustler:
Dude is hard as fuck.

Keep in mind the skinnier tires typically won't help you anyway (they certainly showed me how ill-handling a Miata can be being so far off the pace!)

I can assure you the miata on 175 street tires was far from competitive in PTF (and not much fun to drive either)

Trust me when I say that I'm well versed in the PT rulebook. I'm quite aware of the way tire points work, but what I'm saying is that I don't you can't drop below your base class by running a skinny tire. If a 1.6L PTF** Miata were to run a 205mm wire, he would get 1 point back, but if a 1.8L PTE Miata were to run a 225mm wide tire, I strongly doubt Greg would allow it to run PTF as a 19pt car without a dyno reclass.

crybabyshit.txt

I strongly doubt you're aware my dangling majesty is currently engorged.

seems like a lot of testosterone here boys

FYI Tidbit: That 2003 Miata I told you about that 'downclassed' to F class by tire size participated at NASA Nationals with that car in the past (2 different years actually I believe but I'd have to look it up to make sure) <-- It was as a TTF car though (not PTF)


Edit: ...just checked (looked it up)

Bill participated at NASA Nationals in TTF with his 2003 Miata back in 2006 and 2007 (he was also the TT Group Leader for NASA Greatlakes and Midwest at that time IIRC)

..and um guys, you might want to take a look at what Greg himself said about it:

"It is permitted, and rarely happens. You must still be compliant with the limit on Adjusted Wt/Hp ratio for that class. Since the only credit points are for tire size, it means that you are running on smaller tires, probably street tires, and have little or no mods to the vehicle otherwise."

nasaforums.com &bull; View topic - UP-classing (or down?)

Color me shocked.

For MIDO-->

1995 Infiniti G20 at 2011 NASA Nationals set the new TTF track record with a 1:46.345

Meanwhile, in 2012, the PTF track record (and 2nd place finisher) was (1:47.130) for PTF by Walter Carlos in an Rx7 (g20 was 1st place but slower lap time)


Meanwhile, SM fastest lap time in 2012 at MidO was a 1:43 and PTE was 1:41.684 in a Honda CRX


^ bottom line is I highly doubt a PTF/TTF Miata will be as competitive

:giggle:

lol @ PTE only being 1.5sec faster than SM. This year's PTE field is in for a surprise :giggle:

You are a colored.

:drama:

Guys, please take this as a joke. Seriously, don't get butthurt...

:flamesuiton


FTFY




Also, LOL at Mr. Rules know-it-all Savington getting PWNd by a girl who he ASSumed knew nothing because she has <300 posts. Little did he know she's been racing in NASA for years...

Again, just in jest

Sadly, it looks like there won't even be a PTF or TTF class to run this year at Nationals :(

MidOhio had a better F class turnout in 2011 and 2012... ...we ran TTF in 2011 and PTF in 2012 but sold the G20 so we won't be running in F class with that car any more and the new owner is about to take Comp school with it in August (So I seriously doubt he will go to Nationals this year with it regardless)

I didn't assume anything about her. I assumed Greg would rule a certain way, and he didn't. It won't be the last time he surprises me.

Nobody really gave a shit when you shared your opinion on the depth of NASA PT fields the last time you gave it, so I'm genuinely curious as to why you thought anyone would give a shit this time. If you think it's such an easy win, why don't you rent a car and bring it to Miller? It won't be the first time I'll have beaten you in a NASA Championship race.

And don't take this the wrong way or anything, but you're an egotistical prick.

You know, just in jest. :jerkit:

wow.. what just happened here?



...but anyway, off to MidO we go for the weekend......

:skid:

F is kind of a cool class from a technical/car building standpoint, but if you're looking at building an F car vs. an E car, the E car isn't going to cost significantly more to get you into a faster car with better fields.

What most surprises me about the Nats fields this year is the lack of front-drivers in E. We've rendered the Rx7s obsolete in E (they all moved to D, actually), but I was expecting to see at least SOMETHING that wasn't a Miata in PTE :party:

^ meanwhile I find it interesting how many Miata's are either leaving SM OR being built as just E cars!

E is an awesome class. You can buy a used SM and convert it into a fairly competitive car for way less than $15k, and you end up with a car that's more fun to drive AND faster. :)

So sorry, I'll be at Laguna that weekend...

Really, I don't recall that? The only time I raced at the NASA Nationals was in 2011 (I think that was the year) and that year I finished 3rd in PTB behind a Grand AM driver and a former NASA National Champ, and was fighting for a podium in Honda Challenge 1 when I had massive brake failure on the last lap. I don't recall you being in either of those races.

I've been called cocky before, and I've been called a d*ck before. Probably will be called those sorts of things again. Oh well...

I promise, in real life I'm a nice guy. ;)

no PTF/TTF ? any link ?

Only 1 PTF car signed up. 12 PTE cars, though :party:

4 entries are required by Sept 1st to allow the class to run and right now only Walter Carlos is signed up for both PTF/TTF. If 3 others do not join in, he will either have to 'upclass' to E to participate (and not be as competitive) or be given a refund per the rules. Last year when TTF didn't happen, he just upclassed to TTE 'to get the track time' and it did help him to have that extra track time because he got 2nd place along with the F track record while working hard trying to catch the G20!

Here is the entry list link:

Entry List Report

Anyway, We sold our G20 so are out of the 'F' game for Nationals this year (plus after winning 2 years in a row, have nothing left to prove with that car to be honest) <-- and lets face it, once you have a well proven, well sorted race car, it is usually the best time to sell it (so we did!) ;)


^ we are working on another F car though (that is, it is a car that can easily move from E to F depending on just a few bolt ons and weight!) ...because building a car to the limits of F is kinda fun!

I am in process with a track build., cage is being fabricated this week, sparco 2000 and a 6 point harness going in. NASA just made it to Oregon this season, and I am interested in the Pte class. any advice?

^ what year Miata? Are you staying NA for the best reliability or do you plan to track a turbo or supercharged Miata?

I would focus on weight loss and suspension. Lots of people rave about the Fat Cat coilovers because they are set up very specific to you (You tell him what the car weighs, what you want to accomplish, etc. and they are custom made for you)

AST suspension is another very good option (what we plan to get actually when we find a 99 or 2000 to build into a PTE car while visiting Phoenix over thanksgiving week) <-- it is on the short list of possible future track rats for us anyway BUT we will stay NA (not turbo or supercharged for a track rat)

93 miata. I am open to a motor swap in order to hit hp/wt.

Then pick up an 01-05 VVT motor and get to it. :) My PTE car is a VVT-swapped '90 and it's a quick little machine.

We're thinking about making the trek up to PIR in October with NASA, in fact. :party:

It might be tough to get it all sorted by then, but the vvt seems to be a wise choice. Engine mgmnt is a question mark, but otherwise it is easy enough.

Wish me luck!

Brain or Reverant built MS3.

Dyno tune.

Not particularly difficult.