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Old 07-13-2013, 12:39 AM   #1
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Default Possible for a 1.6 to be competitive in PTF/TTF with manly driving?

inspired by the other thread.
what is the fastest PTF / TTF Miata setup ?
let's see who can come up with fastest combo


1.6 starts at PTF**
base tire size is 215
http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/p...sification.pdf
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Old 07-13-2013, 09:57 AM   #2
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As much as I don't like it for track duty, you would pretty much have to go with a 195 R1R and have the 5 points left over for springs/shocks. If you weren't racing in the heat, the tire should be fine. I am having a hard time figuring out a better way to do it.
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Old 07-13-2013, 02:06 PM   #3
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Problem is you need to have 1 point for cat
Cat don't last.
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Old 07-13-2013, 05:33 PM   #4
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PTF** +14
185/60R13 R6 +3
test pipe +1

That'd be fast, but it would suck to drive.
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Old 07-13-2013, 06:05 PM   #5
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U still have 1 point left !!!!
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Old 07-14-2013, 12:14 AM   #6
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I had a brain fart and miscounted the points. You have 2 points left over in my setup, so you could do the cat delete and have a point left.
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Old 07-14-2013, 12:22 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
U still have 1 point left !!!!
Oops. Cold air intake
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:12 PM   #8
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TTF** +14
185/60/14 Star Specs on 14x7 RPF1 -5
Xida +5
Intake/afm tuning +1
test pipe +1
Torsen swap +3

?
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:26 PM   #9
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No, you guys are going about this all wrong.

Dyno reclass to TTF*/PTF*. Youll be looking at a 21:1 weight/power ratio.

Shocks. Springs. Tires. Take advantage of free mods thanks to your dyno reclass. You know, stuff thats actually useful, like exhaust, 4.8 R&P, losing the AFM, DIYPNP or MS3.

Ill be more than happy to discuss my setup notes via PM, but Im not posting the details. I can tell you that Im ~1sec off the lap record at VIR, 0.4 off at CMP. Thats on a car that needs more alignment development, the 4.8 still put in, the DIYPNP tuned worth a **** because its still on a stock ECU, and a brake bias valve. Its a 1/2 developed car at best, and its already knocking on the door of TTF/PTF records.
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:06 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cucamelsmd15 View Post
No, you guys are going about this all wrong.

Dyno reclass to TTF*/PTF*. Youll be looking at a 21:1 weight/power ratio.

Shocks. Springs. Tires. Take advantage of free mods thanks to your dyno reclass.
...like a VVT motor.
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:25 PM   #11
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...like a VVT motor.
Nooooooooope, Greg wont give you a F* reclass with a 1.8 supposedly.

That would make for one heck of a torque curve though.
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:30 AM   #12
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so 110whp at 2,320LB....

* is +7
shocks +3
springs +2
185/60R13 R6 +3
torsen +3

that's 18 points.

way I see it, this is 30whp down on PTE car, narrower tires (or 20whp down on SM), within 50LB. this is easily 2-3 seconds slower at Miller, if not more. I wonder how competitive this is.

the points system Miata is probably another 1-2 seconds slower.....
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Old 07-19-2013, 02:40 AM   #13
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I ran the 183/13 R6 in E at Mid-Ohio nationals last fall. I don't think I'd ever choose them without the TT/PT rulebook as a constraint, but they aren't bad at all. I liked them for a track like Mid-Ohio with 3 huge straights. Less drag on the long straights, a little shorter than a 205/50/15 so you get some gearing advantage, and they're crazy lightweight- all of which would be good for a 1.6 TTF car. With my car at 2240lb, they were done after 2 laps, though. That makes me question how well they'd work for TT at a long track like Miller. You'd probably have to get it done on the first lap.

I'd suggest testing them if you haven't. If nothing else, they're super fun to play around on. My wheel/tire setup was 25lb each lol.
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:43 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
so 110whp at 2,320LB....

* is +7
shocks +3
springs +2
185/60R13 R6 +3
torsen +3

that's 18 points.

way I see it, this is 30whp down on PTE car, narrower tires (or 20whp down on SM), within 50LB. this is easily 2-3 seconds slower at Miller, if not more. I wonder how competitive this is.

the points system Miata is probably another 1-2 seconds slower.....

Need more power and tire. The 185s wont survive a 40 min sprint race, as previously mentioned, they barely survive a lap or two at Mid-O.

You need to look at some of the +7 point tires (like a 205 NT-01 ) and drop the Torsen. Tires will gain you more than the Torsen will.

Youre right on the points car being slower too, but Id guess its more than 1-2 seconds based on my own experiences.

FWIW, good *F times at places like VIR and CMP are equivalent to mid-back marker SM times. The back of SM, GTS1, PTF and sometimes Spec 944 times are all pretty close.
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Old 07-19-2013, 02:00 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cucamelsmd15 View Post
You need to look at some of the +7 point tires (like a 205 NT-01 ) and drop the Torsen. Tires will gain you more than the Torsen will.
Didn't think the 185 R6s would drop off so fast. Knowing that, I would look at either the 195/50 R1R (-2) or the 205/50 BFG Rival (+1). The BFG in particular is so fast that there's no way the +5 jump to an NT01 in the same size is worth it.

PTF* +7 (~111whp at 2350lbs)
205 Rivals +1
shocks +3
springs +2
OSG +3
air dam +3
=19pts

Or as a points car:
PTF** +14 (119whp @ 2350lbs)
195 R1R -1
shocks +3
springs +2
test pipe +1
=19pts

Are 205/50 Rivals, a diff, and an air damn worth 8whp?
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Old 07-19-2013, 02:30 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Didn't think the 185 R6s would drop off so fast. Knowing that, I would look at either the 195/50 R1R (-2) or the 205/50 BFG Rival (+1). The BFG in particular is so fast that there's no way the +5 jump to an NT01 in the same size is worth it.

PTF* +7 (~111whp at 2350lbs)
205 Rivals +1
shocks +3
springs +2
OSG +3
air dam +3
=19pts

Or as a points car:
PTF** +14 (119whp @ 2350lbs)
195 R1R -1
shocks +3
springs +2
test pipe +1
=19pts

Are 205/50 Rivals, a diff, and an air damn worth 8whp?
Ive considered trying the Rivals myself, if I didnt have two sets of Nittos already. But, on your points car, theres not a snowcones chance in hell to get 119whp out of that car. Remember, youre talking about a stock 1.6, stock intake, stock exhaust, stock everything. At best, thats a 100whp car in good weather.

I think it would be interesting to see your first car though.

BRB, going to the drawing board.
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Old 07-19-2013, 02:37 PM   #17
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But, on your points car, theres not a snowcones chance in hell to get 119whp out of that car. Remember, youre talking about a stock 1.6, stock intake, stock exhaust, stock everything. At best, thats a 100whp car in good weather.
SMs make 120+ on a routine basis with nothing but an exhaust. Stock AFM, stock header. They're allowed to do a little bit in the head, but a points PTE motor would be allowed more displacement and more compression. If you can't make 119whp with an .020" overbore and 9.9:1 compression in the engine, you're doing something wrong.
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:00 PM   #18
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SMs make 120+ on a routine basis with nothing but an exhaust. Stock AFM, stock header. They're allowed to do a little bit in the head, but a points PTE motor would be allowed more displacement and more compression. If you can't make 119whp with an .020" overbore and 9.9:1 compression in the engine, you're doing something wrong.
Youre forgetting FPR, AFM tuning, and IIRC, the compression bump and overbore are both points mods (been a while since I looked at that, admittedly). Pretty sure, based on what Ive seen of a 1.6 pro motor SM, those head mods are going to slap you with a +6 too.

Regardless, Id say that yeah, the air dam and diff might be worth the 8hp.
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:27 PM   #19
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Youre forgetting FPR, AFM tuning, and IIRC, the compression bump and overbore are both points mods (been a while since I looked at that, admittedly). Pretty sure, based on what Ive seen of a 1.6 pro motor SM, those head mods are going to slap you with a +6 too.

Regardless, Id say that yeah, the air dam and diff might be worth the 8hp.
1.49% displacement increase (78.5mm is 1.25%) and +0.5:1 compression are no-points mods, as are valve springs/retainers (lifters must be BTM), forged pistons, and forged rods. SMs made big power before the FPR and valve job was allowed, and I would argue that AFM tuning isn't a modification of the AFM and thus wouldn't take points (and even if Greg ruled otherwise, you would just buy 20 AFMs and see which one made the most power).
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:32 PM   #20
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1.49% displacement increase (78.5mm is 1.25%) and +0.5:1 compression are no-points mods, as are valve springs/retainers (lifters must be BTM), forged pistons, and forged rods. SMs made big power before the FPR and valve job was allowed, and I would argue that AFM tuning isn't a modification of the AFM and thus wouldn't take points (and even if Greg ruled otherwise, you would just buy 20 AFMs and see which one made the most power).
I think (dont quote me) that the AFM has come up before when trying to class a SM in TT or PT classes and it was considered a points mod.

But yeah, buy 20, see which one has the extra 2hp (aka, the Danny Steyn). Same for stock ECUs for the 1.6, the SM guys pay a premium for those.
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