Prepping for the cars first track day
 

Hey guys,

I am trying to get my car on the track before the end of the season and have a lengthy list. Would you mind reviewing it and providing any feedback or pointers?

The car is a 1995 Miata with a Flyin' Miata II Turbo Kit with Hydra Nemesis 2.5 ECU, and has been setup well for AutoX by the previous owner. The car came with a set of old 225/50/R14 Hankook C71 slicks and 205/45/R16 Falkin 360 tread wear crappy tires. My plan is to run the Hankooks, and if they wear out, finish the day with the Falkins.

Here's the shopping list:
-Carbotech XP10 pads for F&R (can't decide between 1521 or AX6 pads for street use - Carbotech says they can share the same rotor as the "track only" XP10)
-Centric rotors (probably skipping the cyro-treated option)
-Hard Dog M1 Hard Core Roll Bar (Hardtop version for future hardtop)
-ATE "blue" brake fluid

Here's the fabrication/labor list:
-Seal off air flow through the radiator (there is currently a clear line of sight from the bumper through the passenger-front wheel!)
-Install some sort of hood extraction vent. Already have a spare hood, wrx bumper vents and a mini cooper S scoop - I just need to decide what is best and install something. I plan to improve overall aero for the track and autoX over time, so want to make good decisions from the start.
-Make a flat underbody panel to seal the bottom of the bumper/intercooler/radiator and engine bay all the way to the center line of the front axles. Someone must make this already and could use the time saved installing something pre-fabbed... Any recommendations?

One thing I realized is that this car does not have OBDII, or even the factory computer... I can't use my OBDII reader and TrackAddict App on my phone to record laptimes and create video overlays like I did in my Mazdaspeed3. :/ I've been looking around and it appears that the AIM products are the only data loggers that talk to the Hyrda Nemesis via Serial? Is there anything else out there? I really want to run something and it looks like the AIM Solo is my only affordable choice.

This will be quite the test for this car. Currently has two AutoXs under it's belt since I got it and going to jump straight to Oregon Raceway Park with the GF, sharing the car between two groups. Perhaps planning to take it back home on a trailer would be wise.

Picture provided for fun. :)

Thanks!

Is it *your* first track day, or just the car's first track day?

Which radiator is in it? You want one of the newer multi-pass designs, like the 949, TSE, or newer FM ones. Radiator ducting is extremely important for good cooling on-track. You may or may not need hood extraction vents -- ducting, removal of AC condenser, TSE radiator, and modified/extended stock undertray has been doing a good job of keeping my car cool on track.

As far as the roll bar goes, be aware that the non-HT bar actually fits under a hardtop, it's just that you can't use the side latches. The HT bar sits further back to make space for them, but that results in a lower overall height. Depending on how tall you are, that may or may not be relevant. I'm 6' and need all roll bar clearance I can get.

As far as data logging, what's your goal? If you're trying to make cool-looking youtube videos, then yeah, you may need something like the AIM (IIRC the Race Technologies DL1 had code in it to talk to Hydra 2.6. Not 2.5 or 2.7 though). If your goal is to analyze and improve your driving, then the most useful data are the accelerometers and the GPS position data. Secondary useful are the driver inputs (TPS, brake pressure, steering angle), and the engine RPM. Of those, the only 2 you can actually get from the Hydra are the TPS and RPM, and those are easy to tap with analog inputs on the data logger.

As far as data logger choice, far and away the most important distinction between them is the ease of use on the analysis software. I have heard decent things about the AIM software, but I've never used it myself.

What rotors & calipers?

--Ian

<p>Whats up steve. I was behind you at the last pca auto-x.</p><p>I showed you my little GPS module and there is actually one more spot in my group buy. Not sure if it will be ready for your next track day but you could borrow mine no problem.</p><p>I also showed you my rollbar, and how its higher than the hardtop version. IMO the non-hardtop version is the way to go.</p><p>Car was fast at the auto-x hope to see you out at the track. Which track day are you planning on going to?</p>

I use TrackAddict no problemo. I don't have engine/car stuff on it, but still get accelerations, speeds, laptime, etc. You just need a decent GPS module (see Aidan's post above).

OEM undertray is a pretty good piece and pretty cheap, even brand new. If you have a Mazdacomp account, I think they're about $45. They can usually be trimmed to accomodate intercooler pipes.

Use the Falkens for the first day. Trust me. You will get a much better feel for the car with them. They will let you find the balance of the car in a way the slicks will not. You need that first. Find out if it wants to oversteer or understeer in its current configuration and learn to catch it when it does. Learn to feather it and play with the balance.

The slicks won't talk to you before they let go. They won't warn you. They won't let you get a feel for the car in the same way. And you will be going much faster when the slicks let go and the likelihood of bending the car is much greater. The slicks will cover up mistakes that you should be learning from to improve as a driver and as a new learner of that track. Also think of your girl and her needs to learn and be safe. You will thank me later.

And timing? First, no organizations allow it for beginners. Second, if it is your first track day you will be so busy learning the track that you will not have time to worry about time. Third, your times will suck so badly they aren't worth worrying about until you have done at least two entire weekends at the location. Worry about where to put the car, turn in points, turn in speeds, apexes, track out room, etc. You will see when you get there.

<p>I care to differ about timing. Its really cool to see improvements over the weekend. Not in a competition sense but it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling to see your improvements in paper.</p><p>He is a quick driver, and I hope the last autocross I met him at wasn't his first ever, or I would be a bit embarrassed.&nbsp;</p>

IMHO the best way to do that is with a GoPro. You can get timing data off it, but after you're done running.

--Ian

<p>I run racechrono with my phone in the center console cubby.</p>

If it is your first track day ever, I recommend not even hooking up a lap timer. Work on your track and car awareness. It can lead to a distraction that you don't need when still learning the basics. Its also one less stress when it is not working properly.

<p>My first track day: I used a lap timer with an external GPS and GoPro, and I had it visible to me while driving. I broke later/less, watched what it did to split times, and enjoyed being able to see myself improve.</p><p>Also used slicks. While I never spun, I don't think I got as good a feel for the car as I could have.</p><p>But, I'm also a pussy, and&nbsp;broke for the kink at CMP :( &nbsp; &nbsp;(I was hitting the kink at like ~100&nbsp;AFTER tapping the brakes, and could have easily gone way faster through there. Just the whole &quot;you hit it, then the car slides over a lane or two&quot; thing didn't seem too appealing at the time.</p><p>Tl;Dr:&nbsp;So if you're like Aidan and go balls out into tire walls, maybe consider the Falkens.</p>

<p></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>list looks good for the most part. &nbsp;I encourage you to keep an eye on the temps just in case. &nbsp;If its the car's first time on track, there is a tendency for unexpected things to crop up.</p><p>You don't need OBD2 for laptimes, but you would for TP or temps to be recorded. &nbsp;</p><p>I think its really up to you and your&nbsp;instructor on a laptimer. &nbsp;My last autocross student was basically a DE2/DE3 student by his 3rd session of the day, so we got the laptimer out for one&nbsp;session a day&nbsp;to get a feel for areas he could work on. &nbsp;If you find that you are doing pretty well with managing everything, I wouldn't hesitate to do it or ask your instructor if he is fine with it.&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>As a courtesy I would ask. &nbsp;Takes some courage getting into a DE1 car with a turbo and slicks, especially if its the student's first time out.</p>

Hi Ian,

The radiator is a Koyo V1139. Not the thickest or one of the multi-pass designs. I was hoping that would be good enough when combined with good ducting and extraction vents, and leaving the AC condenser for now. This is a third car, and its roll is to be our toy to take for a fun drive, occasionally drive to work, AutoX, track days, and it would be nice to have AC for all of that. AC would be turned off when racing or doing a HPDE day, of course.

I talked with William today at Hard Dog Racing and he suggested use the measurements from the site to determine what bar fits me well, taking into consideration of my height with and without a helmet on, and the proximity of the bar itself. I'll mock it up tonight and see what fits best. Unfortunately they are really behind on production for most of their roll bars, so I may be out of luck getting it in time for an HPDE day.

My goal with data logging would be both make cool looking videos and analyze data to improve my driving. Its a bummer you can only get TPS and RPM out of the Hydra... I suppose that could potentially open more doors though if I just tap into the sensors on the car. Any suggestions for a device that does it all and has decent software?

I was planning on buying Centric "Premium High Carbon Brake Rotors," and potentially even the cryogenically treated ones. The calipers are the stock '95 calipers.

Hey Aidan! Nice to see you here. I do remember your GPS module - send me a link for more info on your group buy. :) I see you are an EE... I can see us being friends. :p

I'll see how mocking up the roll bar goes... What I learned from William may help me nail down the right one for me.

I was planning on going to the event at ORP on the September 21st, but it is full and has a wait list. Team Continental has one on October 3rd, but only 3 people are registered at this point and they cancelled the drivers school. If that gets cancelled, this car might not see a track this year. :(

When I was at ORP in March, TrackAddict only recorded the engine data in the first session, and the rest just relied on GPS in the phone to estimate speed, which wasn't that precise - likely 100% due to the cheap cell phone GPS module. I didn't notice it until I got home, so never had a chance to try and correct it. Anyways, having driver inputs and engine data is nice, but it certainly isn't everything.

I have an OEM undertray and almost installed it the other weekend, but once I got under the car I started looking at just making one piece to cover the bottom and attach to some sides... Neither happened, so perhaps I should just carve it up and install it around the intercooler tubing.

Okay, great advice. I didn't think about the nature of slicks vs. street tires, and didn't really think about my GF either, lol. I haven't been able to get her to come to an AutoX event and she's never driven a car hard, so it hasn't really crossed my mind she would drive near the limit. Falkens it is.

Total newb. Haha, not quite... That was my 13th AutoX, but only the second time racing the Miata. I've had the car for a month and a half now and have only put about 200 miles on it. I was actually a little shocked with how well I did, which is perhaps a final nail in the coffin for my Mazdaspeed3. I unlocked the powers of steering with throttle on my second time out and driving at the limit in RWD just felt so much more natural to me. :D I've never been able to drive that fast before.

To address all the concerns about track experience:
I have only been on a road course once before, and that was in March this year at ORP (CCW direction) in my Mazdaspeed3. I ran with Team Continental in the novice class and took their driving school. My instructor was awesome and after a few laps said that he is going to smooth out the AutoXer in me and then we'll focus on tackling the corners I need to work on the most. After 3 sessions he took me for a couple rides in his S2000 race car and demonstrated the things he wanted me to change between my sessions - that by far was the most effective way for me to learn: my lap times showed immediate improvement. My fastest lap without traffic in my first session was around 2:24 (min:sec) and he helped me get down to 2:07 as my best, and a 4 or 5 consecutive laps of a consistent 2:08. A few guys I knew that were experienced on the track and had similar cars were in the 2:03-2:10 range. At the end of the day he signed me off for solo driving. I have a lot to learn still and I always ask instructors to ride with me (the picture I included has a seasoned AutoX'r riding shotgun with me) - I'm always looking for ways to improve. After riding with me, I rode with him in his BRZ and stole his lines - knocked my time down a full second. :p

For this final track day of the year, I planned on running in the intermediate group, and ask some friends in advance to ride with me and help me improve. This would allow the GF to run in novice with a guaranteed instructor in each session.

Regarding the data logger, I didn't pay any attention at all to it while driving - my instructor was. After the session, I would browse through the video, check lap times, and review the areas my instructor pointed out things to repeat or improve on in the next session. I thought it was an incredibly helpful tool and I didn't let it distract me.

When and where is your track day, and what temperature do you expect it to be?

I used to have a radiator similar to that Koyo (an old FM radiator). It would work OK at Laguna with average temps in the high 60s, but I never got the car to run acceptably with it at Thunderhill, where average temps were at least 80.

IMHO, you're better off building your cooling system around the best radiator you can get your hands on. Making ducting is kind of a PITA, and anything you make for the Koyo isn't going to fit a TSE/etc very well. My experience is that most hood ducts look like utter crap (and those that don't usually required a lot of money for bodywork/etc) so personally I regard that as the step of last resort for getting the cooling system to work right.

--Ian

The event I was hoping to make it to (might not given the short time frame) is on September 21st at Oregon Raceway Park in Grassy Valley, OR. Current weather forecast is a sunny with a high of 80 and a low of 57 degrees F. The following event I might attend is on October 3rd and the forecast is 79H/49L.

If I have to put a radiator in before I can go, I'm not going to make it this year. My list seems impossible enough given my limited free time. Luckily I have a spare hood I don't care about and I can install some piece of plastic that will cover up the hole. I don't think they look particularly great either, but I'm all about function over form at this very moment. :p

A radiator swap this winter may be in order. I am trying to get my hands on a decent NA CAD model so I can play with CFD analysis and get a feel for all the different aero mods everyone has been doing on here and attempt to simulate all the parts working together. The ME in me can't let me just place a hood vent and put an air-dam up front and call it good - everything needs a purpose and to be optimized as a whole.

https://www.miataturbo.net/miata-par...3/#post1257792
<br />There is a 3d model of the NA floating around. I'll try and find it again today.

I have no time to read everyone's post besides your first one, but I have a few things to add.

First off, never start on slicks. Secondly, give Adrenaline Racing a call for some Cobalt pads, they're not as picky as Carbotechs for bedding. 3rdly, if you do end up with Carbotechs, you'll want to swap rotors and pads for the street. Because of that, just get the cheapest rotor blanks you can find at any auto parts store, seriously. The only thing the Centrics are good for is the black paint, rust looks bad on the street, but who cares on the track.

Sweet. I almost want to say sign me up now to fill that last spot, but I'm not sure if I want to use a phone again or buy an all-in-one unit like the AIM...? Is there a device out there that takes analog inputs and relays it to Harrys Lap timer or TrackAddict or similar to capture engine data?

I've found 4 nearly identical CAD files on various forums and they all are a low resolution (can't think of a better word) non-vectored shell models. I'm hoping someone has a clean Solid out there that I can carve away from. I don't care to rebuild all those surfaces... :/

I'll look into the Cobalt pads.

From what I've heard about Carbotechs, you can use their 1521 street pad (and perhaps even the AX6 autocross pad) on the same rotor as the XP line. Just install the XP's before driving out to the track day and be sure to bed them on the way, and you're set. Can anyone confirm this?

Thanks!

Not sure with the hydra. If you can get CAN out then any BT OBDII reader can do it.

The Hydra only has serial out and apparently only works with AIM...? Haven't been able to find that something else would work. As Ian pointed out earlier, the Hydra is only going to give me two outputs: TPS and RPM (which is pretty disappointing). So tapping into sensors sounds like the best option, but not sure what products are out there that would be a good fit. If there is another BT device that can relay that data to a phone app, then I'm all for your GPS module. :)

I'm half wondering if I could get away with buying a cheap used laptop and use the Hydra Nemesis software to datalog, and just sync up the data I want later...?

Yes you can definitely do that

Hmm... So perhaps a laptop would be my second choice then.

Is there anything better out there that doesn't cost more than the car?

<p>Can you onboard data log with the 2.5?</p><p>That would be easy.</p>

<p>Looks like some versions also suppport canbus.</p>

Oh, it'll give you more outputs than that -- I just don't think you really care about logging things like coolant temperature and spark ignition on your video. TPS and RPM are, IMHO, the only things it will log that are relevant to the question of how to improve one's driving.

2.5 logs to serial only, no SD card, no CAN bus.

Syncing up the data later is hard, at least if you want it accurate to within 100 ms (Hydra logs at around 10 Hz, so one data line). You need a sync event that can be seen unambiguously on both logging devices, and you probably need it to be periodic so that you can resync them when the clock rates drift. After that you need to interpolate one of the data streams to the clock rate of the other one. The interpolation is fairly straightforward (although you'll need to write the code to do it yourself, because I doubt there's anything off-the-shelf that does exactly the right thing), but coming up with a periodic sync event that exists both in the existing Hydra-logged data as well as in your second data device is tricky.

--Ian

Throttle and RPM would be nice to haves, but I wouldn't go nuts to get them. RPM's biggest value, IMO is what gear you're in, and more specifically whether you're in right gear for each corner. I suspect you can get most of that data comparing lap to lap in data and video. Throttle would be nice to have, especially knowing if you're lifting when you shouldn't, but it's not the end of the world. You can still get a lot of information without those data points.

I'm a big fan of the AIM software. I've played around with a few of the app based things. The software is okay, but AIM's is well developed, and better suited to real driver/car development than the apps. I'm running a Mychron based setup that's great, but if I was going to do it again, I'd buy a Solo and be done with it.

Thanks for clarifying, Ian. For the sake of learning and improving, yes, those are the only two that would be helpful. For shaking down the car on the track for the first time, it would be nice to capture a little more data and actually watch coolant temperature.

Good points on syncing up data and clock drift... Didn't really think about that.

Thanks for sharing your thought on the AIM software and the Solo. I think I might just bite the bullet and get a Solo DL for $700... Sometime before next season.



On a different note: I sized up the roll bar and saw what William at Track Dog Racing was talking about... The M1 HC Roll Bar sits higher and more forward - that can be a problem for tall people who both have the seat all the way back and sit really high in the car. I don't have the seat all the way back, so I won't strike my head on the bar, but I sit tall. With a helmet on, the helmet sits about an inch above the roll bar. :/ I guess I am buying a race seat as well... And that probably means a harness as well. Damn, this is getting more and more expensive just to get on the track.

<p>Official PDX Lounge - Page 556 - ClubRoadster.net</p><p>come post over here.</p><p>local track dick swinging hangout</p>

A race seat by itself won't buy you all that much. Cut the rear seat mounts out of the floor pan and bolt the race seat to the floor with custom brackets, that'll drop you 3-4 inches.

--Ian

<p>aluminum seat on the floor gives me lik 6 inch drop over stock</p><p>foamectomy plus rear mount removal will drop a decent amount.</p><p>also ive never been broomstick tested here</p>

The previous owner took out a bunch of foam from the stock seat and there isn't much left to remove. It's made a noticeable difference... In a stock NA, I don't fit comfortably under the top. In my car, there is quite a bit of head room until I have a helmet on... Then its interference again.

This is the list of stuff Track Dog Racing suggested I get based on my fit and my intended use for the car:
Hard Dog M1 Hard Core - $525 (x-brace)
Ultra Shield TDR Rally Sport Seat - $378
TDR Seat Rails 90-05 - $89
Ultra Shield Cam Lock Harness - $177
Ultra Shield Harness Clip-ins - $3 each

He said the X-brace has clip-in locations instead of a bar, so I could install both the seat and the harness for track days, and then go back to the stock seat and seat belt for the street. I like the idea of putting the stock seat back in. This would give me 2" apparently, but that might not be enough. See attached picture.

I need to limit the number of forums I get on... I'll never sleep. :p

Personally, I'm not a fan of aluminum seats, I'd rather have FIA-approved composite ones. I have Recaro Pole Positions, they're a good streetable race seat. They do cost quite a bit more, though.

You gain huge amounts of vertical clearance by cutting out the rear seat mounts, but that removes the ability to easily bolt the factory seat back in.

--Ian

Reading some of the back and forth on slicks, intermediate run groups, etc.

Been instructing with NASA for a bit now- helping run events in other capacities for about 3 years, as well as race TT with them and started track days with them back in the day.

For most drivers, quick advancement through the run group levels should be done with caution. Being in the intermediate and advanced run groups isn't just about putting down fast times, it's about fully understanding track etiquette. How to merge in and out of pit lane, being hyper aware of cars coming up on you and where, when and how to give them safe point byes. Being hyperaware of not just the straight in front of you, and the turn way up ahead, but also the flagger that you're driving past, considering how close you'll be to that car you've been catching up to when you're going over that blind hill, or being aware of that vette that just barely popped into your rear view when you were in the middle of the straight, and knowing you'll probably need to position yourself to give a point by in 4-5 turns, and knowing without a doubt what the black flag, or red flag, or black flag with red circle means when you see it, and acting accordingly.

Even if you can go and do a hot lap within a few seconds of SM records, driving safely with all that in mind simply takes building up track hours.

Case in point- this was posted by some kid I'm in a facebook group with. He's been throwing money at his Miata. Turbo, semi-built engine, full (poser-boi) aero, shitty coilovers. He did two track days with SCCA Track Night in America with no turbo yet, but on 245 Maxxis. Then he strapped the turbo on and 275 R7s, promoted himself up to the advanced run group (I seriously don't understand this TNiA shit), and stuffed it into his buddy (also novice with too much tire, aero and power) after giving him a point by at the end of the front straight.

Lap two, first session.

Attachment 232796

This is a an extreme case, but too often I see people show up with big power and big, r-comp tires, and it's their first or second track day, and fuck, I certainly don't want to be getting into the car with them, or have other people be on track with them.

Anyway, /rant. Obviously most people here get it, but with the considerations about tires and run groups on the first page, figured I'd try to drive the point home.

<p>SCCA track night is a shitshow.</p><p>Will never run with them again. Don't want to die.</p><p>I did about 8 track days in novice. And wouldn't hesitate to go back to novice if on a new track.</p><p>At both PIR and Thunderhill I now run intermediate, because novice just got to be boring. I plan to stay in intermediate for a lonnnnggg time. Point by's still required, only passing on the straights, but a few less horribly slow people.</p><p>That being said, if I ever do a track day at a new venue, I will still go novice.</p>

Hm. Front-right to front-right impact? Someone must have spun?

--Ian

Damn shame. That miata looks like mine + aero too.

I did one SCCA track nights at Thompson. It was sketchy. People showing up in shitboxes with no tech... advanced groups that are slower than any I have ever seen before... and two MASSIVE novice groups that were basically lines of noobs with no clue.

According to the description in the instagram post, the miata pointed by the s2000 in the last part of the straight, and then the s2000 spun while breaking for t1. Sounds like they were dragging down the straight and then ran out of talent.


240- that sounds miserable at Thompson. It's such a tight course that even with a well run event, if there are any kinds of numbers it turns into trains. Scca Track night there sounds terrible.

<p></p><p>FTFY</p>

:likecat:

So what "broke" when braking for turn one?

Prepping for the cars first track day
 

Then there is this:

I am going to go ahead and respond to this since I was the event manager at the event that picture comes from.

Neither drivers were novice. The S2000 driver came in with experience, was respectful, showed courtesy on track and had good observations through multiple conversations I had with him in the two events he ran advanced with us. The driver in the Miata was not self-promoted to advanced group. He had multiple track days before he first ran with us at TNIA, and he has run every NJMP event this year and that event was his sixth event with us. His first couple were in Intermediate group and he showed heads-up driving, good demeanor, good awareness of situations and a respectfulness of his car - which is his baby - in a way that I really thought was producing the good behavior I was seeing on track. I had seen no indication that he was going to be anything other than respectful on track and his three events with us in advanced group reinforced that.

They went out to run together to lead-follow and the combination of comfort and trust in each other led to a poor result.

Sometimes, despite all the words, despite me assuring them there are no trophies, that people shouldn't engage in close-quarters race-type driving, people make mistakes. This week I have had 260 Track Night entrants at three different events with 109 of them being novices. (about 60 of those novices had never been on a track) This was the only incident.

After reading that you realize there are some pretty pretentious people on this forum.

It's pretentious to advocate general safety on track? But it's not pretentious when you pat yourself on the back when there's only one contact-accident involving two totaled cars in a week of HPDE events or when you call someone out for spelling 'braking' wrong on the internet. Got it.

It seems my facts weren't quite dead on. My point remains- big power, sticky tires, and limited experience on track should be combined with caution.

Prepping for the cars first track day
 

Pretentious as in having seen so many examples of asshattery in our years of track experience that we don't automatically give the benefit of the doubt to people who bend cars in a non-racing environment?

< Yep. Guilty as fuck. I've seen a moron spin a Viper in the first turn out of the pit exit in DE1 right in front of my student. He didn't make a single turn yet. I've seen c7's with all the nannies turned on go sideways into the tires at the slowest part of a track with a retiree at the wheel. I've been there when the guy who swore he was experienced and awesome on Saturday morning went home before lunch with a totalled M3. I've listened to the 350z driver who rationalized he could finish the session even though his brake fluid had boiled because he didn't want to give up a moment of track time.

I've got more.

Yep. I'm pretentious. Very.

Haha. Reminded me of this (fun challenge -- count the black flags):


Seriously, I don't get the pretentious comment. ?? We do have a lot of folks here with a lot of experience that can give valuable advice. So far as I can tell, that's all I've seen.

Oh . . . and some grammar/spelling corrections, but that's what we do.

Oh my, those are a bit more... :drool: Unfortunately not in the budget right now.

I'm going to meet up with Aidan soon to see how I fit in his car and decide where to go from here.

Regarding advancement in the runs groups, Will made some great points - there is more to it than just being fast. I need to work on ingraining what each flag is and what to do when I see one and to remember to keep looking up at the flaggers so I do see them.

Now I do only have one track day under my belt, but novice did not seem like a good group for me to run in for future track days, at least at this event... One guy and myself were the fastest in the group, a few kinda close, and the rest were causing heavy traffic jams all over the track. I would rarely get more than two laps without getting stuck behind someone or a line of cars in each session that takes a lap or two to get through, and then have to pass one or more of those people from the line over a few more laps. I never had to give a point-by the entire day. Somehow in the last session I got 6 consecutive laps with no one in front or behind me. My friends in intermediate had a similar problem with a particular driver in their group, but it was only one driver.

Like Aidan, I am happy to run in novice on a new track. Based on my singular experience so far, I am hesitant to run novice again on a track I know or did well on. The fact Aidan has run in that group 8 times (not sure if they're all the same track), perhaps I should be entertaining the idea.

I'm 6'5" and size big, and an aluminum seat is the only option. The car has a treasure coast hard top, full cage, window net and right side net and I still fit. Luckily I find the Ultrashield VS Halo full containment seat to be pretty comfortable and supportive.

Since the time that I bought mine they've come out with the Road Race VS Halo, if I bought another seat it would probably be that one.

Here's picture I just threw up since the image hosting system on the site is nuked right now. Car is in pieces because of a last minute scramble to make it out to a race weekend but you get the idea.

Attachment 232795

I have a Kirkey aluminininium seat and it is more comfortable than most of the fancy fiberglass seats I have had the occasion to ride in. YMMV.

You should be able to recall from memory to an instructor where each of the flag stations are on the track prior to being moved up. This is somewhat more daunting at Sebring with its 17 turns.

I'm with the others on AL seats. I find my US SM seats to be extremely comfortable. Just make sure you mount the AL seat correctly -- they need a good back brace tied into the roll bar/cage structure.

Don't be in a hurry to move up in run groups. Enjoy your time with an instructor. When you're ready, they'll promote you. Organizations want people out of Novice as soon as safely possible to make room for new blood (I mean, customers).

I wish I could get a particular instructor to ride with me again to give me pointers on my line. I feel like I could learn so much more now that these years have passed. He was a TT record holder and a very quiet, focused person. Our paths have not recently crossed.

<p>My 8 track days were at 2 different tracks.</p><p>I really like the instruction and only just moved up to intermediate. After the first session my instructor said that I should move up to intermediate, novice was just too slow that day. I replied &quot;but I want the instruction&quot; so he rode with me in intermediate for the rest of the day.</p><p>Some days the novice group is slower than others. That particular day I was having trouble working on improving my braking zones/technique because I kept running into people braking way to early.</p><p>I've found that most organizations let you move up if you are ready. So I feel fine signing up for novice, and if the novice group is too slow that day move up.</p><p>Another note is that PIR with BMW club is where I run most often, and in the intermediate group they still only allow passing with point-by's on the 2 straights. No passing in corners or anything like that. So its basically a faster novice group with people who are a little more attentive. I don't have any issue staying there for a while.</p>

<p>My biggest issue with Novice group isn't the speed, it's the unpredictability. It's someone slamming on the brakes at an apex, or pointing by at the very end of a straight (or pointing by in an zone that's not an actual passing zone) or other stupid stuff like that.</p><p>I plan on running intermediate everywhere from here on out. At ORP on the 21st though I'm of course running A Group since that's really the intermediate group (no group for first timers at this event).</p>

Prepping for the cars first track day
 

Most accidents occur in Intermediate. Damn sophomores.

Yepp. It's just part of it. Suddenly drivers are going along at a much quicker pace with the opportunity to push their cars harder, and really start finding the limits... By going beyond them. It's just a part of it sometimes, and you hope that you don't stuff it and get intimately acquainted with a tire wall. You also hope that you're surrounded by people with good foresight and situational awareness that no one else gets involved.

I like NASA's DE structure.

DE1- novices, always have instructors in car. If you have show good car control, good lines, and attention to flaggers, it's not terribly hard to move into DE2.
DE2- instructor in car for session #1, and remaining sessions upon request. Typically there are less trains on track, but still going at a 7-8/10ths pace or so. You can stay here for a while and learn the tracks in your region, learn your car, and continue to get experience with track etiquette in a more controller environment, without having clueless people driving 70mph down the straight in your way.
DE3- your first chance to really start driving 9/10ths or faster at a consistent rate. You expected to intimately know track etiquette at this point, but may not yet know the full limits of 10/10ths driving. Consequently, you see lots of cars in the grass here.
DE4- basically instructors, long time track drivers, racers just taking a practice day. The pace is fast, 10/10ths. If you're in a low hp car, you're expected to see every high hp car coming up in your mirror and point them by so neither of you really needs to give up any momentum, and take the turns just as fast or faster as them. No all season tires, heck, most will be on a 100tw or better.

I like this a little more than the basic, novice, intermediate, advanced line up.

Sorry for thread derailment.

I wish I had an instructor every single session. One of the reasons I keep signing up for novice.

Actually, de3 was 9/10ths to 10.5/10ths depending upon the driver. Much of DE4 is 7/10ths to 9/10ths because the edge is worn off a bit and a lot of the instructors are just cruising instead of being superduperserious. The instructors know there will be another trackday and don't have to squeeze everything out of this one.