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Old 02-12-2014, 08:11 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by FatKao View Post
NB2 all the way. If you're doing it on your terms just wait it out and get a good deal, I got a high mileage NB2 for $4,500 with a hard top. Roll bars swap any which way as long as you don't have a glass top. Worst case swap the top over from your NA. Or take out the soft top and run with a hard top only like a real man.

Most of the wear parts (suspension) swaps over from my NA. After parting out my NA and buying a bunch of maintenance items (front ball joints, outer tie rod ends, brake lines) I'm $3,600 into the upgrade. Still have to buy hubs & bearings and engine parts. Will need at least a timing belt kit and valve cover gasket. I have some of the radiator hoses already.

Haven't started parting out the NB2 yet.
That sounds awesome. As for being a real man, my current track car has no hard top or soft top and gets driven to the track rain or shine.

Yeah, all my wear parts are good. I think the only thing I'd need to do is have the NB rack depowered and welded, all my hubs/bearings front and rear only have ~15 hours of track time.

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Originally Posted by wannafbody View Post
I bought my NA already built with a 99 1.8 installed. The previous owner spend $2500 just on the engine install. I'd say throw the 1.8 in the car you have.
Unless I run across a smoking deal, I just don't see it being that cheap. Add in the need for a Torsen and you have nearly the cost of an NB2.

Hence my dilemma.

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If time and location allow it, to save some money on the motor, buy a wrecked NB2 and part it out to make up some money back.
Not a bad idea, I have the garage space and the time.

It's just a matter of if I want a hacked up '90, or a basically stock NB2. My desire for reliability is what is pushing me toward the NB2.
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Old 02-12-2014, 11:38 AM   #22
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If your main goal is reliability and seat time, it seems a no brainer to buy an NB2.

Not than an NA w/ a VVT motor can't be reliable, I just imagine the initial install and making reliable phase will be lost of labor and time...
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Old 02-12-2014, 12:14 PM   #23
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Because I literally hate working on cars. I only do it because I can't yet afford to have a shop take care of prep and maintenance.
Given that, I'd say just buy the NB2.

I'm in the middle of a VVT swap into my NA. It's been a lot of work and there is still ton more to do. No way I'd be able to get it done if I didn't know a bunch of people who really enjoy wrenching.
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Old 02-12-2014, 12:44 PM   #24
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Thanks for all the input gents.

I need to get the NC sold first since I just picked up the tow rig.

Then I'll probably work on pulling apart the NA, selling what few things may be worth it to someone, then begin the process of looking for a good deal on an NB.

Another reason I like this idea is I learned a few things building the first one that I'd like to change for the next one.
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Old 02-12-2014, 02:19 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Dunning Kruger Affect View Post
Except that there are way more VVT motors out there versus the unicorn BP4W head. You can pick up a junkyard VVT motor for $800 or you can pick up a BP4W head (only) for $800.
I was trying to say that an NB1 would be cheaper than an NB2 if buying the entire car. The NB1 is not a bad platform.

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Originally Posted by z31maniac View Post
I was under the impression the runners/combustion chambers were the same between the two, BP6D just adds VVT?
AFAIK yes, but the BP6D adds both VVT and VTCS



Because, you know, VTCS is awesome

Cams are definitely not the same:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 949Racing.com
BP4W 99-00
OEM intake cam .326 cam lift 248 seat duration
OEM exhaust cam .350 cam lft 244 seat duration

MSM/BP5A (OEM cam that fits the BP4W head)
OEM intake cam .349 lift 251 duration

BP6D 01-05
OEM intake cam .370 cam lift 242 seat duration
OEM exhaust cam .350 cam lft 244 seat duration
We all know the N/A formula, its really no secret:

I/H/E mods on a healthy BP6D engine (10:1, VVT) BP4W intake manifold (VICS rather than VTCS) and like, Racing Beat header and ECU is about as good as it gets for readily available OEM domestic or OTS parts.

Yes, you could always stick a square top on the BP6D if you want to put $400 into a manifold, but is it really worth it? Yes, you give up .5 point of compression and VVT with a NB1, but I'm honestly not sure what that's worth in the grand scheme of things. No clue how "stock" OP wants this car to be. You pay the weight penalty for an NB but you get more power potential. For a superhpappyfuntimes track-only car, put the NB drivetrain in the lightest NA chassis you can find (braced up NA6 w/brakes) and win at power:weight. For a fun and tolerable dual use car, do the same as above with an NBx chassis. It's not rocket surgery.

If someone asspacks my NB and I can salvage the drivetrain, I'm doing the NA6 thing. Or fuckit I'm building an Exocet becausepower:weight

Quote:
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Yeah, it (BP4W) flows better than the VVT head; however, spinning the motor gets expensive quick and usable torque is always fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunning Kruger Affect View Post
drive-ability of the BP6D makes it a no brainer for the track.
I'm confused by these statements, please elaborate. Actually, don't. It does not really matter and I don't care.
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Old 02-12-2014, 03:03 PM   #26
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^I don't mind eventually doing bolt-ons and a tune. If I do the swap into an NA6, I'd start off with all of that anyway.

Squaretop is already on the way. If I stick with the NA6, I'll likely sell it and just buy a JDM motor out of Dallas.

I think the main thing is thinking about dropping potentially another $5k+ and still having the NA, vs having something a bit cleaner, no hacking up for a Standalone, more room in the engine bay, etc.
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Old 02-12-2014, 03:35 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by z31maniac View Post
I think the main thing is thinking about dropping potentially another $5k+ and still having the NA, vs having something a bit cleaner, no hacking up for a Standalone, more room in the engine bay, etc.
Agree with all this, starting with an NB is definitely less work. Except the hacking up part, not sure where you got this. I had to cut exactly 2 wires to install my MS and they were to adapt the IAT sensor and extend the harness. I don't think I even had to do that, but chose to do it as I wanted to use weatherpacks as opposed to just jamming pins into the stock connector with electrical tape
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Old 02-12-2014, 04:04 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
Agree with all this, starting with an NB is definitely less work. Except the hacking up part, not sure where you got this. I had to cut exactly 2 wires to install my MS and they were to adapt the IAT sensor and extend the harness. I don't think I even had to do that, but chose to do it as I wanted to use weatherpacks as opposed to just jamming pins into the stock connector with electrical tape
Well true. I'm also thinking about all that money that doesn't = track time.

Maybe I should just find a '99-00 engine and run it off the crummy barn door AFM and 1.6 ECU so I can at least get back out on track.
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Old 02-12-2014, 05:42 PM   #29
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I'm confused by these statements, please elaborate. Actually, don't. It does not really matter and I don't care.
Spinning a BP up to 8500RPM is an expensive proposition.

Having lower end torque is awesome.
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Old 02-12-2014, 07:47 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Dunning Kruger Affect View Post
Spinning anything designed with a 7200RPM readline up to 8500RPM reliably for hundreds of hours of becauseracecar time is an expensive proposition.
FTFY

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Originally Posted by Dunning Kruger Affect View Post
Having lower end torque is awesome.
Want torque? Get a [insert: turbo/diesel/roots blower/more displacement/V6/V8]. Generally a 4 cylinder engine is not a fabulous place to start when one is looking for torque, but I see what you are saying.

If the price difference was more than $1,000 between an NB1 and an NB2, I buy the NB1 and spend the $1,000 on hookers and blow I/H/E and standalone ECU, but that's just me
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Old 02-12-2014, 07:54 PM   #31
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lol man, that's a good joke. So hilarious when goalposts are constantly being moved, heh
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Old 02-12-2014, 10:44 PM   #32
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lol man, that's a good joke. So hilarious when goalposts are constantly being moved, heh
No seriously, you were the one talking about spinning it over stock RPM and complaining about usable low end torque.
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Old 02-12-2014, 11:07 PM   #33
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You're the one that started bringing up the BP4W, but hey, I'm the insane guy.
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Old 02-12-2014, 11:34 PM   #34
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I know it's widely accepted the NB is a stiffer (and nicer) chassis; but I'm genuinely curious why exactly. What is so different on the NB that increased it's rigidity so much (other than the added bracing throughout the years that can be added to the older cars)?

Sorry if this has been covered before. What kind of bracing are we talking to make an NA as "stiff" as a stock NB? Am I there yet with a rollbar/frame rails/hardtop/na8 diff brace? The car feels pretty damn stiff now compared to stock at this point.
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Old 02-12-2014, 11:36 PM   #35
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True, I brought it up as a viable option however I don't remember the ad hominem.
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Old 02-12-2014, 11:46 PM   #36
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You might want to look at the definition of ad hom, again.
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Old 02-13-2014, 03:16 AM   #37
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Couple of options, buy an NB2 and swap parts, buy an MSM and pull turbo off, throw a K24 in the current car.
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:59 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireindc View Post
I know it's widely accepted the NB is a stiffer (and nicer) chassis; but I'm genuinely curious why exactly. What is so different on the NB that increased it's rigidity so much (other than the added bracing throughout the years that can be added to the older cars)?

Sorry if this has been covered before. What kind of bracing are we talking to make an NA as "stiff" as a stock NB? Am I there yet with a rollbar/frame rails/hardtop/na8 diff brace? The car feels pretty damn stiff now compared to stock at this point.
the NB2 have the butterfly brace thingy. NB1 has the rear subframe U brace (not sure, this might be an NA8 item). the NA8 have the front subframe brace?

might be missing some here...
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Old 02-13-2014, 09:08 AM   #39
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Couple of options, buy an NB2 and swap parts, buy an MSM and pull turbo off, throw a K24 in the current car.
1. In the running
2. Makes no sense to me at all.
3. Would be awesome, have a feeling it will be even more than I want to spend.

I'd also like to build a 99+ engine and drop in the current car, but the prices for used engines around me is just insane.

If I could find a worn out one for a few hundred buck, I'd go that route.
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Old 02-13-2014, 09:10 AM   #40
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You aren't going to break even. We are talking about cars here.

If you hate working on cars it's a little hard to give you advice on what do to because "work on" is a very subjective term.

How did you blow the previous motors? Were they turbo? If it were me I would just sell the car complete for a good price and start from scratch on a new car (if you go 1.8 you will essentially have to modify/sell off your 1.6 stuff anyway). Usually for me, if I'm thinking about doing something the desire is there... and it sounds like to me you want a fresh start. Nothing boosts motivation like a new project. Who knows you might enjoy working on cars again.
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