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Old 12-11-2011, 03:11 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by Trackwhore View Post
I never called you a hypocrite and downplaying turbo's because you sell rotrex kits is very different than saying that turbo's are not suitable for the track. If I am going to spend time searching for these posts, let's at least get on the same page.

Let me guess, you guys will use a TrackSpeed turbo kit on the next car.
You know what really bugs me? When people on forums offer backhanded, self serving and thinly disguised insults masquerading as incisive observation. When called out, the backpedaling begins.

"So now that you're not hooked up with someone dealing Rotrex anymore, you're going to push turbo's? "

"I just find it to be contradictory"

"I never called you a hypocrite"


Two years ago when I posted our Rotrex results and what I observed them doing better than turbos, there were many skeptics. Those that actually owned, drove or raced Rotrex powered Miatas knew my observations were accurate. I also acknowledged the Rotrex's inherent weaknesses.

I think a lot of fans of turbos on our forums felt threatened and saw what they wanted to see.

I write: "Rotrex's are a great alternative and do several things better than turbos"

They read: "turbos and PD blowers suck, you're stupid for owning one, Rotrex are best at everything"

Thus, I become the enemy of the small minded and words get put into my mouth that I have never uttered. I am viewed as an idiot, liar or propagandist for bringing something new to the community. So much emotion over something so trivial. It's just a tool either way. I use 6pt sockets for some things, 12 pts for others. All of the interweb posturing just makes me laugh.

Last edited by emilio700; 12-12-2011 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 12-11-2011, 03:45 PM   #242
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downplaying turbo's because you sell rotrex kits is very different than saying that turbo's are not suitable for the track.
I don't speak for Emilio, but IMO it's actually exactly the same thing, whether you realize it or not.

2+ years ago when the first Rotrex proto was kicking around (I first saw William's car in intercooled form at MRLS 2009), there were no v-bands. There were no Inconel studs. If you had a turbo track car, you were either handy with a box wrench and oven mitts or you were slow. The Rotrex was the only kit on the market that could be installed and taken to the track, and that's why Emilio sold it - because he only sells products that work. If you wanted to cut a check, get a box, install it with handtools, and go 5+ seconds under the SM record, there was only one option.

2+ years on, we have v-bands. We have Inconel stud kits and Resbond. The major flaws that plagued turbos have been solved through years and years of testing and R&D. If you combine Kraftwerks' decision to move away from Miata development and the leaps and bounds Trackspeed has made towards a reliable, track-bulletproof turbo kit, the next part of the story practically writes itself.

2 years ago, the best track-worthy FI kit was from Kraftwerks. Next year, it's going to be from Trackspeed.

I have no idea why you would expect any vendor to ignore significant advances/changes in a marketplace - that is a completely unreasonable expectation.

Last edited by Savington; 12-11-2011 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 12-11-2011, 08:45 PM   #243
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I don't speak for Emilio, but IMO it's actually exactly the same thing, whether you realize it or not.

2+ years ago when the first Rotrex proto was kicking around (I first saw William's car in intercooled form at MRLS 2009), there were no v-bands. There were no Inconel studs. If you had a turbo track car, you were either handy with a box wrench and oven mitts or you were slow. The Rotrex was the only kit on the market that could be installed and taken to the track, and that's why Emilio sold it - because he only sells products that work. If you wanted to cut a check, get a box, install it with handtools, and go 5+ seconds under the SM record, there was only one option.

2+ years on, we have v-bands. We have Inconel stud kits and Resbond. The major flaws that plagued turbos have been solved through years and years of testing and R&D. If you combine Kraftwerks' decision to move away from Miata development and the leaps and bounds Trackspeed has made towards a reliable, track-bulletproof turbo kit, the next part of the story practically writes itself.

2 years ago, the best track-worthy FI kit was from Kraftwerks. Next year, it's going to be from Trackspeed.

I have no idea why you would expect any vendor to ignore significant advances/changes in a marketplace - that is a completely unreasonable expectation.
Exactly. I bought my Rotrex system because, at the time, it was the only FI system I could buy, install, and track without constant maintenance. The turbo community, specifically Sav and others on this board, had not developed the solutions we have now for known turbo track problems. Now that those solutions exist, and are proven, the choice to go turbo for a track car is much easier. In fact is it probably the better choice given the volatility in the Rotrex kit supplier space.
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Old 12-11-2011, 10:21 PM   #244
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Old 12-12-2011, 02:35 AM   #245
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link to buy posters?
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Old 12-12-2011, 03:22 AM   #246
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link to buy posters?
Hadn't thought of that. I did give it the proportions to fit standard 4:3 picture frames. I'll see what it'll cost to get some 20x24's done and how they look.
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Old 12-12-2011, 04:13 AM   #247
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Yeah I bought a rotrex for the same reason. I had seen so many people post about failing studs and such. I also wanted an fi car that did not rely on some form of boost control and the advantages of getting heat out of the engine bay, lower ait, and the quick response made it an easy choice. Now that ive done it and did well I may go turbo on my next build with a new vbanded style kit.
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Old 12-12-2011, 09:09 AM   #248
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Congratulations, great result.
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Old 12-12-2011, 02:14 PM   #249
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So now that you're not hooked up with someone dealing Rotrex anymore, you're going to push turbo's? Am I the only one that see's the irony in this?
It's called evolution.
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Old 12-12-2011, 04:08 PM   #250
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It's called evolution.
I hate to burst your bubble, but I believe that the proper term is innovation.

Regardless. Congrats on the great win! we were all rooting for you at road atlanta, constantly checking twitter and whatnot!
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Old 12-12-2011, 08:42 PM   #251
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949 is a business and part of that business is testing and developing things that make our cars go faster. Part of the process involves 949 selling one product one year and a new product when the next new thing comes along. It's not fickle nor hypocritical for this process to cycle through season after season.

I've personally had Emilio talk me out of spending more when something that cost less would be fine for my needs and I've heard that story over and over from friends in the community. 949 and Emilio is the rare combination of plus service and plus products under the same roof - there are very few others I would put in this category too.

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Old 12-13-2011, 02:43 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
You know what really bugs me? When people on forums offer backhanded, self serving and thinly disguised insults masquerading as incisive observation. When called out, the backpedaling begins.

"So now that you're not hooked up with someone dealing Rotrex anymore, you're going to push turbo's? "

"I just find it to be contradictory"

"I never called you a hypocrite"


Two years ago when I posted our Rotrex results and what I observed them doing better than turbos, there were many skeptics. Those that actually owned, drove or raced Rotrex powered Miatas knew my observations were accurate. I also acknowledged the Rotrex's inherent weaknesses.

I think a lot of fans of turbos on our forums felt threatened and saw what they wanted to see.

I write: "Rotrex's are a great alternative and do several things better than turbos"

They read: "turbos and PD blowers suck, you're stupid for owning one, Rotrex are best at everything"

Thus, I become the enemy of the small minded and words get put into my mouth that I have never uttered. I am viewed as an idiot, liar or propagandist for bringing something new to the community. So much emotion over something so trivial. It's just a tool either way. I use 6pt sockets for some things, 12 pts for others. All of the interweb posturing just makes me laugh.
Your switch to turbo's as soon as your rotrex supplier has ceased brings out the skeptic in me. These are your words, not mine:

Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
That we have no ties with any Miata Rotrex vendor any longer and have strong ties with the premier Miata race turbo shop in the country, seals the deal..


From one buddies products to another.
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Old 12-13-2011, 02:48 PM   #253
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^ OK, great. We get your point, we all realize 949 is not into rotrex anymore. no one gives a ****, move on.
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Old 12-13-2011, 03:05 PM   #254
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There is obviously a huge conspiracy going on here! I'll see if we can form a congressional committee to provide oversite of emilios business practices. We need to get to the bottom of this immediately. I might however have it within my powers to thwart this government intrusion in exchange for a 949 twin disc clutch!

Last edited by rlogan; 12-13-2011 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 12-13-2011, 03:08 PM   #255
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Quote:
From one buddies products to another.
I don't speak for Emilio or 949 at all, but from where I am sitting, I see it like this.

When 949 started carrying the Rotrex system it was in their opinion the best EASY solution to FI on the market. It also happened to produce just about the most power at a given boost level, while having the lowest IAT's, and being the least prone to detonation. They also fully acknowledged that the torque curve was not the best of the different options, but for track use where you are at high RPM, this wasn't as big an issue. Then when Kraftwerks had internal issues, and basically imploded on itself, and essentially stopped any progress in the Miata community, 949 saw that any progress in the rotrex world was coming to an end. (a lot of people blamed 949 for never coming up with an NA kit, but in reality, there was an NA kit, but karftwerks never green lighted it, and 949 had nothing to do with production of the kits.)

Now that Kraftwerks essentially is done with the Miata community, 949 is looking for new options for FI, and in the years since they started with the Rotrex, turbo tech has come a very long way, both in reliability, and in efficiency. (I personally am still "spooked" by turbo's, but that is due to my general lack of knowledge of turbos.) It just happens that the shop that has arguably made the most progress in Miata turbos happens to be friends with 949. (In business I think they call that choosing your friends carefully, and intelligently.)

So IMO, IF there was still a reliable Miata Rotrex supplier, 949 would still be carrying them, and still be using them. That does not mean that they wouldn't also be looking at turbos, there is no reason that you can't do both. But since there is essentially no option for the rotrex, they have stopped looking in that direction, and are looking at what appears to be the current "best" solution to FI. In 3 more years the scales might be tipped back towards the supercharger.

I am sorry if I am stepping on anyone's toes, and again, I don't speak for Emilio, I am just voicing what it looks like from what little I know, and please feel free to correct me on anything that I said that is not valid.
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Old 12-13-2011, 04:56 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Trackwhore View Post
Your switch to turbo's as soon as your rotrex supplier has ceased brings out the skeptic in me. These are your words, not mine:



From one buddies products to another.
Skeptical about what? Man up and type.
___________

You are confusing two different subjects and clearly don't recognize it.

HPDE on a budget for a non-mechanic
  • 2 year old Rotrex recommendation

Winning NASA T25
  • Peak power and torque both capped and easily attained
  • No limit on area under the curve
  • Much bigger budget than typical HPDE guy
  • Expensive, custom built full race motor OK
  • Sophisticated engine management a given
  • Four mechanical engineers and a physics major on team
  • Non production - finicky, user unfriendly, one of a kind F/I hardware OK
I do not expect these clarifications of facts to cloud your thoughts with understanding.
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Old 12-13-2011, 06:31 PM   #257
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trollfood
Stop feeding the troll. He's perfectly happy with his own smug sense of self-importance gleaned by preaching his misconceptions and falsehoods to a forum full of people who are smart enough to know what bullshit sounds like.

Even if he wanted to understand your argument (assuming he's mentally capable of that), he would never admit that he was wrong, because people like him are too egotistical and conceited to ever acknowledge their own errors. People like that are literally the worst kind of human being to walk the planet.

Nobody on this forum gains anything from reading his posts or replying to them, so nobody should. This thread is about our T25 victory and it should celebrate the ability and knowledge of the team. Revel in the fact that tomorrow, you will still be one of the most respected, knowledgeable vendors in the community, and he will still be a morally bankrupt, willfully ignorant and/or maliciously insincere shitstain.
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Old 12-13-2011, 06:40 PM   #258
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Damnit I just had an awesome post planned out about the aerodyne aerocharger
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