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Old 01-02-2014, 09:03 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
The 205/50 SM6/R6 is definitely faster on a 9" wheel and the difference is easy to measure.
In that vain, do you think the 225/45 would work better on a 10" wheel?
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Old 01-02-2014, 09:32 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by z31maniac View Post
In that vain, do you think the 225/45 would work better on a 10" wheel?
Well the reality is 205 SM6s (8" tread width) are actually more like a 225 (~8" tread width), I don't think Sav's statement is nearly as applicable as the "205 on 8, 225 on 9" statement.

a 205 is usually closer to lower 7.x".
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:55 PM   #23
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Hoosier R6 was about 3 seconds faster on a 2 mile course than the Star Specs. Same car, same day but in a HPDE format. In a race the R6 might be even faster.
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Old 01-03-2014, 01:06 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by z31maniac View Post
In that vain, do you think the 225/45 would work better on a 10" wheel?
I think the 225/45 R6 on a 10 would see a similar advantage to a normal 205/50 on a 9. Small gain, but small enough that it's difficult to measure.
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Old 01-03-2014, 11:24 AM   #25
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The what tire is faster question depends on many variables. Back in 2004 we were running the 12hr at VIR in an SM and they had an open tire rule for that event. The RA1 is the tire we had run usually as it was the spec tire. We had also run this race the 2 previous years with the Data Aq running so we knew what to expect. We figured open tire rule, we'll get Goodyear GSCS tires as there "faster" and we'll kick butt. We go down and on the test day we try them out. First guy goes out and is 3 seconds off the pace. He comes in and says how the car is on rails thru the corners. I go out next and same results. I'm 3 seconds off the pace. And the car was on rails with those tires. We put on an old set of RA1's and I go back out and after 2 laps I'm back on pace. We go back and compare data between the years and it turns out were losing about 5mph on the straights as the tires stick to well. Think getting your hand off a piece of flypaper. Stickier tires use more HP to move. In a large HP car, probably not a real problem anywhere. On anything under 250HP you need to weigh how much time you gain and lose on the straights and corners based tire grip and the track your on. So whats faster usually does not equate to whats the stickiest tire. FYI
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Old 01-03-2014, 11:37 AM   #26
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ugghhhh that was hard to read
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Old 01-03-2014, 12:17 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
I always love during the driver interviews when the CTSCC driver's praise the Conti tires and how well they did. It's a lie, every single time. The series pays you money if you mention the tire during your interview. They had to add that little $ benefit to get people to mention them...
I always wondered why I never heard of Conti slicks at all outside of the CTSCC. Are you going to be driving for them next year? I didn't make it to Indy this year but last year I enjoyed it, some right hand turns to keep me awake during the NASCAR weekend.
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Old 01-03-2014, 12:21 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mchris View Post
The what tire is faster question depends on many variables. Back in 2004 we were running the 12hr at VIR in an SM and they had an open tire rule for that event. The RA1 is the tire we had run usually as it was the spec tire. We had also run this race the 2 previous years with the Data Aq running so we knew what to expect. We figured open tire rule, we'll get Goodyear GSCS tires as there "faster" and we'll kick butt. We go down and on the test day we try them out. First guy goes out and is 3 seconds off the pace. He comes in and says how the car is on rails thru the corners. I go out next and same results. I'm 3 seconds off the pace. And the car was on rails with those tires. We put on an old set of RA1's and I go back out and after 2 laps I'm back on pace. We go back and compare data between the years and it turns out were losing about 5mph on the straights as the tires stick to well. Think getting your hand off a piece of flypaper. Stickier tires use more HP to move. In a large HP car, probably not a real problem anywhere. On anything under 250HP you need to weigh how much time you gain and lose on the straights and corners based tire grip and the track your on. So whats faster usually does not equate to whats the stickiest tire. FYI
Chris
Yeah, of course things are going to be in relation to each other and it's a vague guide with understanding that it isn't The Law That Will Never Change or Be Challenged Never Ever. For comparison's sake, the Racelands can be faster than Xidas... with the stipulation that there's a hotshoe driving the car with the Racelands and a DE1 student driving the car with Xidas.
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Old 01-03-2014, 02:42 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by thenuge26 View Post
I always wondered why I never heard of Conti slicks at all outside of the CTSCC. Are you going to be driving for them next year? I didn't make it to Indy this year but last year I enjoyed it, some right hand turns to keep me awake during the NASCAR weekend.
The Conti slicks are made by Hoosier. They are basically a slick version of the old R3 tire, with some modified rubber formulation (as far as I understand).

The Grand AM series used to run spec Hoosier tires. Then Continental paid a bunch of money to be the "Tire Supplier / Title Sponsor", and then they paid Hooiser to continue making the tires and start painting Continental on the side of them.

The reason you haven't heard of them outside of CTSCC is that they are only sold to CTSCC teams, and no one in their right mind would pay the exhorbitant price for sh*tty tire unless they are required to by rule.

AND, unfortunately NO, I am not slated to do any Grand AM races this year. I'm taking some time off as I recently had my second child and the time commitment to do Grand AM was eating up all my family time.

Last edited by Efini~FC3S; 01-03-2014 at 02:43 PM. Reason: still learning to spell...
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Old 01-03-2014, 04:31 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Dunning Kruger Affect View Post
Yeah, of course things are going to be in relation to each other and it's a vague guide with understanding that it isn't The Law That Will Never Change or Be Challenged Never Ever. For comparison's sake, the Racelands can be faster than Xidas... with the stipulation that there's a hotshoe driving the car with the Racelands and a DE1 student driving the car with Xidas.
There is no comparison there. I was talking about, with all other things being equal, the difference in a car's performance with different tires. You were using human performance and suspension performance combined. Sorry, not a good example.
Chris
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Old 01-03-2014, 04:52 PM   #31
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I wasn't clear what I was challenging in your example, the claim that stickier tires might not be faster because the Miata has a HP deficit. I agree with what you said; however, your experience in Spec Miata is fairly specific and you don't necessarily need 250hp to run some of these tires.

Sorry for the confusion.
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Old 01-03-2014, 11:38 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mchris View Post
The what tire is faster question depends on many variables. Back in 2004 we were running the 12hr at VIR in an SM and they had an open tire rule for that event.

The RA1 is the tire we had run usually as it was the spec tire. We had also run this race the 2 previous years with the Data Aq running so we knew what to expect. We figured open tire rule, we'll get Goodyear GSCS tires as there "faster" and we'll kick butt. We go down and on the test day we try them out. First guy goes out and is 3 seconds off the pace. He comes in and says how the car is on rails thru the corners. I go out next and same results. I'm 3 seconds off the pace. And the car was on rails with those tires.

We put on an old set of RA1's and I go back out and after 2 laps I'm back on pace. We go back and compare data between the years and it turns out were losing about 5mph on the straights as the tires stick to well. Think getting your hand off a piece of flypaper.

Stickier tires use more HP to move. In a large HP car, probably not a real problem anywhere. On anything under 250HP you need to weigh how much time you gain and lose on the straights and corners based tire grip and the track your on. So whats faster usually does not equate to whats the stickiest tire. FYI
Chris
Fixed

GRM just did an article on this, lots of math and stuff, but they basically agreed with you.

They also did a comparison on summer tires, I'll try to find it.
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Old 01-04-2014, 12:23 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Rules are meant to be broken. (except the SM rule.) Most 205s will be slightly faster on a 9" wheel, but the difference would be hard to measure. The 205/50 SM6/R6 is definitely faster on a 9" wheel and the difference is easy to measure.

Assumptions: 2 minute road course, 2-3 miles in length, the NT-01 will do a lap in 2 minutes

Assuming all tires in a 205/50 where applicable
Fast
Hoosier R75 (call the chiropractor)
Hoosier R80 (jesus christ)
Hoosier R100 (more)
BFG R1S (a lot)
Hoosier A6 (-4.0-4.5 depending on weather)
BFG R1
Hoosier SM6/R6 (-3.5)
Hankook C71 (-2.5)
Toyo RR (-2.5)
Continental Grand-Am slick (225/45) (-1)

Nitto NT-01 (0)

BFG Rivals (+0.5 or less)
Hankook Ventus R-S3 (+1 or less)
Toyo R1R (195/50) (+1.5)
Dunlop Direzza ZII
Dunlop Direzza Star Specs Z1
Falken Azenis RT-615
Slow
Can anyone comment where the maxxis rc1 falls into this? I'm thinking it's similar to the NT-01 maybe -.5?
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Old 01-04-2014, 12:28 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by EErockMiata View Post
Can anyone comment where the maxxis rc1 falls into this? I'm thinking it's similar to the NT-01 maybe -.5?
lol just seconds after I posted I find this. https://www.miataturbo.net/wheels-ti...8/#post1087024

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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
Would be nicer still to be able to qualify and race up front for two weekends but only the RR's do that I think. The Maxxis RC-1 does it for 3 weekends but it's 2-3s slower than Hoosiers.
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Old 01-04-2014, 12:29 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by dstn2bdoa View Post
Fixed

GRM just did an article on this, lots of math and stuff, but they basically agreed with you.

They also did a comparison on summer tires, I'll try to find it.
I would like to read that article if you have a name...
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:47 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by z31maniac View Post
In that vain, do you think the 225/45 would work better on a 10" wheel?
I have been running the 225 NT01 on 10"s all year. While I can't give you time comparisons vs the 9" wheel I can tell you they do feel great on a 10". The decision to run the 225 on a 10" was one of necessity.
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:45 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by EErockMiata View Post
Can anyone comment where the maxxis rc1 falls into this? I'm thinking it's similar to the NT-01 maybe -.5?
Varies depending on the car and weather. At worst, they're equal. Cooler weather and/or heavier car, the RC-1's are faster. On our light Miatas, we need to have track temps under about 90* for the RC-1's to really out pace the NT01's. The RC-1's do last longer and steer better. That's saying a lot because the NT01's steer well for a hard compound HPDE level tire.

None of the Socal Miata HPDE crew but NT01's any longer.

The chart looks pretty accurate to me except I would put the Rivals and RS-3's on the same line. The Rivals are just easier to drive and last longer. Setup can be off a bit and still be fast with Rivals. RS-3's require a closer to optimum setup for the car to feel good. This is largely because you can bulldog a poorly setup car on Rivals into rotating without scrubbing too much speed. Exact same input/entry speed with RS-3's on the same car and you're farming.
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:52 PM   #38
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Where does the RA1 fit into all of this?
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Old 01-06-2014, 11:03 PM   #39
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Great info in here for a track noob like myself...


Any more info on heat cycling would be good as well- specifically how long they last or when they start to fall off would be helpful to know. Maybe included in the first post alongside the time differential?
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:11 AM   #40
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Where does the RA1 fit into all of this?
Slower than Rivals. If you're still running RA1s and you aren't required to by your ruleset or budget, you need to evaluate your life choices
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