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Old 01-09-2014, 06:30 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
Excellent question. Not being a tire engineer I can only guess, but I suspect the compounds used in the Rival and RC-1 are not too far apart in performance properties. The big difference being tread pattern (or lack thereof). In practice, the RC-1, as you would expect, behaves better when it's at it's grip and temp thresholds. Thick tread is not conducive to good steering response, thermal rejection or ultimate grip.

The RC-1 is a purpose built HPDE tire, probably the best on the US market today. The Rival is a dual duty tire, also probably the best on the US market today in it's category. Decide which fits your usage.
I think that is a fair assessment, I've been very impressed with the Rival at the track especially compared to the RS-3's. Given my limited experience with more track focused tires (I've had one set of scrub NT01s and RA1s), they remind me the most of driving on cycled out NT01s compared to anything else I driven.
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Old 01-09-2014, 06:35 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
BFGoodrich g-Force KDW-R 1:59-2:01 (depending on how much rain)
Hoosier H20 2:00
Continental Wet +:00->+:01?
Toyo RA-1 +:03
Toyo R888 +:04
Everything else + :06
Sorry for continuing to be a BFG cheerleader in this thread, but BFG has a little known r-compound rain tire and it's actually really pretty good.

Phils Tire Service BFG g-Force KDW-R

I was actually one of the very first club racer to ever run on it (as far as I know, yay me!!!) and I was really suprised at how good it is.

Compared to the Hoosier H2O (which is an amazing tire for sure), I think the BFG is slightly better, to equal, to slightly slower depending on how much rain/water there is. In my experience, in heavy rain the BFG is faster (likely due to it's deeper tread, and tread pattern). In medium to heavy rain it's probably equal to the Hoosier. In light rain the Hoosier is probably a little bit faster, again likely due to the difference in tread depths and pattern.

The first time I drove the BFG KDW-R it was absolutely pouring buckets at Mid Ohio (a terrible, horrid place in the wet). There were rivers running across the track, had to have the wipers on at full speed, etc. etc. The only reason I went out that session is because the BFG engineers wanted our feedback since the tire was new and relatively untested. I was blown away how fast I could go in that much water, every lap we kept going faster and faster. It felt like the car had the grip of a Hoosier H2O in half as much rain/water, it was really really good.

Also, Continental has a wet tire and I'm pretty sure it's just a H2O with yellow Continental painted on the sidewall. I'm pretty sure it's an H2O because it's actually a really good tire, not like the regular Conti slick...


Also, has anyone ever run Pirelli take-offs from a World Challenge team? I've never run them but one of my team-mates has. As I recall they are a pretty darn good tire, but expensive as all hell. I think Pirelli was charging something like $360 a tire for a 225/45/17 in World Challenge...two or three years ago. Who knows what it is now.
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Old 01-09-2014, 10:11 PM   #63
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I have run the "225/45/15" Conti Grand Am wet and it's not an H20. Hand cut by the looks of it so they may not be production tires. I don't recognize it actually. It's also huge, like 240mm across the tread. Better than H20's I think. Less feedback but more raw grip. Only ran them in heavy rain, no mixed or drying track. Laguna Seca in a downpour, scared the crap out of myself trying to make them slide.

I'd like to try a set of the KDW-R's if they come in hair dresser size.

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Old 01-09-2014, 10:37 PM   #64
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It makes me sad that the conti isnt DOT approved if it really is that wide. I'm not looking forward to the day I actually need to run 225 H2Os on my car.
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:28 AM   #65
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Kumho W710 will out-puddle anything on that list if you can use one of the few sizes available.

Toyo R1R is worth a thought since the tread pattern is actually derived from a racing rain tire.

Conti's Extreme Contact DW doesn't look like much, but it's won every wet tire performance test I've ever seen it entered in. Beat all the hot comp street touring tires including the RIR hands down. I think R1R was second.
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Old 01-10-2014, 08:55 AM   #66
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A lot of autocross guys locally run summer tires for runs, but they DD and use the Conti DWS for DD duty and rain duty. I need tires for my 2 and it sucks that they don't make them in 15". :(
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:45 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
I have run the "225/45/15" Conti Grand Am wet and it's not an H20. Hand cut by the looks of it so they may not be production tires. I don't recognize it actually. It's also huge, like 240mm across the tread. Better than H20's I think. Less feedback but more raw grip. Only ran them in heavy rain, no mixed or drying track. Laguna Seca in a downpour, scared the crap out of myself trying to make them slide.
I think some of the early Conti wets were hand cut, and I'm not sure what compound they were made from. Considering you were running 15" (which haven't been used in Conti in a few years) I'm guessing they were some of the older versions. I "think" (not sure) the newer ones, ie 2013 and after, are basically H2Os. At the very least they're made in the same mold as the H2Os because the tire and tread pattern look identical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio
I'd like to try a set of the KDW-R's if they come in hair dresser size.
The KDW-R is only available in a handful of sizes, but 205/50/15 is one of them. 8.4" section width.


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Originally Posted by WAM View Post
Kumho W710 will out-puddle anything on that list if you can use one of the few sizes available.
Have you actually driven all of the tires on the list, and compared them to the W710? I've never driven on any Kumhos (dry or wet) so I'm ignorant to how they perform.
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:51 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
Have you actually driven all of the tires on the list, and compared them to the W710? I've never driven on any Kumhos (dry or wet) so I'm ignorant to how they perform.
I know in solo the W710 used to be so much better than the hoosier wet that people would give up their chance to win hoosier contingency by switching to the khumos in the rain. I believe that was before the H2O came out though. And back then, in some sizes, the hoosier DOT dirt stocker was the best rain tire in the history of the universe and beyond.
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Old 01-10-2014, 10:24 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
Have you actually driven all of the tires on the list, and compared them to the W710? I've never driven on any Kumhos (dry or wet) so I'm ignorant to how they perform.
Nope, only some of them. Most wet racing has been on Goodyear full rain tires. Needless to say, they're awesome. I've run H2O and they're excellent. I've run R1R which were a step down, but very capable. And I've run RA1 which I found to be okay when new. But much of the tread is shallow to being almost phony. So after a little wear they become 2-groove.

The W710 was built as a competitor to the H2O. I've never run on them because I'm a Hoosier guy. But Jeez -- just look at them. That tread pattern looks like it just came off a Formula 1 full wet grid.
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:31 PM   #70
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I'll offer my two cents from ChumpCar, having raced on the ZII's all season we showed up to Road America in October with a set of both ZII & Rivals to test with 4 drivers and 14 hours to do it. Both in 205/15 mounted on 15x8 6ULs

First day out on the ZII's with maybe 7 heat cycles was confidence inspiring and fast. Ran them right down to the cords and never questioned a turn.

Second day on Rivals with 1 heat cycle took some getting used to, they didn't inspire as much confidence across the drivers but on average we did pick up 2-3 seconds on a ~3 minute lap time. Could have been the full tread depth tire giving us the extra wiggle
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Old 01-10-2014, 03:16 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WAM View Post
Kumho W710 will out-puddle anything on that list if you can use one of the few sizes available.

Toyo R1R is worth a thought since the tread pattern is actually derived from a racing rain tire.

Conti's Extreme Contact DW doesn't look like much, but it's won every wet tire performance test I've ever seen it entered in. Beat all the hot comp street touring tires including the RIR hands down. I think R1R was second.
It looks like the W710 may no longer be in production. Kumho states max operating temp is 195. That's a good sign. Means its very soft like the H20. Funny, if you could actually get your hands on the 205 W710, you could probably shave them for a cheater TT one lap special in cool weather.

ECSTA W710 - OnlineTires.com



The 195/50/15 R1R is on of our teams backup wet tires when shaved to about 5/32. Shaved to 1 or 2/32, they are shockingly quick in the dry on light cars in cool weather. Another cheater tire for TT. Jeff Preston?
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Old 01-11-2014, 11:02 PM   #72
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Any info on the Federal 595 RSR's?
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Old 01-12-2014, 02:53 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post

The 195/50/15 R1R is on of our teams backup wet tires when shaved to about 5/32. Shaved to 1 or 2/32, they are shockingly quick in the dry on light cars in cool weather. Another cheater tire for TT. Jeff Preston?
It's been on my list for the last 2 years, but the 185/60/13 hoosier paid contingency and made more financial sense... until the new 2014 rule change where a 185 R6 is no longer worth it. I'd love to see someone try a 195 R1R this year in TT. I'm not even sure that I can afford to take TT/PT very seriously this year, so I'll probably just go with the easy button that I already know is stupid fast... 205 Rival.

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Old 01-12-2014, 08:33 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
Varies depending on the car and weather. At worst, they're equal. Cooler weather and/or heavier car, the RC-1's are faster. On our light Miatas, we need to have track temps under about 90* for the RC-1's to really out pace the NT01's. The RC-1's do last longer and steer better. That's saying a lot because the NT01's steer well for a hard compound HPDE level tire.

None of the Socal Miata HPDE crew but NT01's any longer.

The chart looks pretty accurate to me except I would put the Rivals and RS-3's on the same line. The Rivals are just easier to drive and last longer. Setup can be off a bit and still be fast with Rivals. RS-3's require a closer to optimum setup for the car to feel good. This is largely because you can bulldog a poorly setup car on Rivals into rotating without scrubbing too much speed. Exact same input/entry speed with RS-3's on the same car and you're farming.
What are the Socal Miata HPDE crew running now?
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Old 01-12-2014, 12:03 PM   #75
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What are the Socal Miata HPDE crew running now?
Maxxis.
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Old 01-12-2014, 12:10 PM   #76
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Any info on the Federal 595 RSR's?
I have a small amount of experience with the Federals. On heavy cars the seem to over heat and get greasy much quicker. On lighter cars they seem to do a bit better but can still get greasy. I think for the price(~$70 ea) they aren't half bad but there are much better choices out there.

A number of folks were running them at the autocross I attended yesterday and the general consensus was if you over drove them they'd get greasy. However, no one was utilizing a pyrometer nor being that diligent on air pressures so take that comment with a grain of salt.

I'd like to do some more experimenting with them sometime, they have a 205/50/15 which would pair with a 15x8 nicely.

Last edited by Lincoln Logs; 01-13-2014 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 01-12-2014, 08:54 PM   #77
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Maxxis.
225s or 245s on 9" wheels?
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Old 01-13-2014, 01:26 PM   #78
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225s or 245s on 9" wheels?
Maxxis only offers a 205/50/15 RC-1 which most of run on 8's. Bedegi runs his on 9's without issue. When Maxxis releases their wider tire (unknown width), we'll switch.
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Old 01-13-2014, 01:50 PM   #79
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Any info on the Federal 595 RSR's?
I was gonna say Emilio should tell us about them, as he won the 2012 25 hours of Thunderhill on them.


Then I remembered that it was all a ruse, and they used Toyo RRs instead.
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Old 01-30-2014, 03:45 PM   #80
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I was going to PM Emilio but apparently that's not an option...

Does anyone know how well a 205 RR would work on a 9" wheel or is that just crazy? I ask because we have a wholesale account with Tire Rack through work and I'm looking to order my '14 track setup. My cart is 15x9 C1Ms and 225 Rivals currently but since these are solely for track use, I wanted the fastest tire I could find through TR.
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