Thanks for the info Emilio!
Originally Posted by dcamp2
(Post 1089177)
Great info in here for a track noob like myself...
Any more info on heat cycling would be good as well- specifically how long they last or when they start to fall off would be helpful to know. Maybe included in the first post alongside the time differential? I budget every year for a set of summer tires because it's cheap fun. 15" wheels are awesome. (go look up a set of R-S3s/Rivals in 17") |
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1089198)
Slower than Rivals. If you're still running RA1s and you aren't required to by your ruleset or budget, you need to evaluate your life choices :dealwithit:
As for required/budget I get free takeoffs all the time so I guess they fit my budget. |
Originally Posted by greddygalant
(Post 1089213)
That's interesting to me I'm almost 3 seconds a lap faster on used SM RA1s vs fresh rivals. Same 205 size on a 15x8. This is around Portland International. I'm trying sm6 takeoffs for this year on a 15x8 again and see where that brings me.
As for required/budget I get free takeoffs all the time so I guess they fit my budget. |
Rivals are the same speed as NT01s? I hate to question that, but I haven't seen it. I guess I also haven't seen the RR be much faster, if at all, than an NT01. I really wanted it to be. I don't have nearly the time on them that some of you do, though. Did you have to set the car up significantly differently to achieve that?
<shrug> robert |
Originally Posted by Dunning Kruger Affect
(Post 1089201)
Thanks for the info Emilio!
The best way to figure out when tires start to fall off is to keep a logbook with ambient+track temperatures and laptimes. If you're just starting out, you can do a full year of track (4+ events) and autocross (8-10 events) on a set of summer tires and they'll still have a bit of stick to them, the tread might not though. I budget every year for a set of summer tires because it's cheap fun. 15" wheels are awesome. (go look up a set of R-S3s/Rivals in 17") |
They're going to start falling off, but it'll still be decently quick. I have 30 25-minute sessions and probably 40 50+ second autocross runs on my current set of R-S3s. I didn't flip them, so the tread isn't looking too confident in the rain, but they still stick when warmed up (including a 35F day at VIR-F).
I'll use them on the street until I order Rivals for this upcoming year (planning 6+ DEs and autox). |
Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1089174)
Varies depending on the car and weather. At worst, they're equal. Cooler weather and/or heavier car, the RC-1's are faster. On our light Miatas, we need to have track temps under about 90* for the RC-1's to really out pace the NT01's. The RC-1's do last longer and steer better. That's saying a lot because the NT01's steer well for a hard compound HPDE level tire.
None of the Socal Miata HPDE crew but NT01's any longer. The chart looks pretty accurate to me except I would put the Rivals and RS-3's on the same line. The Rivals are just easier to drive and last longer. Setup can be off a bit and still be fast with Rivals. RS-3's require a closer to optimum setup for the car to feel good. This is largely because you can bulldog a poorly setup car on Rivals into rotating without scrubbing too much speed. Exact same input/entry speed with RS-3's on the same car and you're farming. |
Originally Posted by robertcope
(Post 1089231)
Rivals are the same speed as NT01s? I hate to question that, but I haven't seen it. I guess I also haven't seen the RR be much faster, if at all, than an NT01. I really wanted it to be. I don't have nearly the time on them that some of you do, though. Did you have to set the car up significantly differently to achieve that?
Rivals produce the same peak lateral Gs as the NT-01, same as the RS-3. They beat the RS-3 on braking and accel grip. Fresh NT-01 to fresh Rival, we're talking a couple of tenths in either direction. A little wind or a 10deg change in track temp and the difference is 0, so it's a hard A-B test to do. RRs are much faster than NT-01s. They also get set up way differently - massively different tire pressure, different camber settings. If you offered me 225 NT-01s or 205 RRs for a race, I'd take the RRs every time. |
Originally Posted by Track
(Post 1089514)
is this a comparison of 205 NT01 vs. 205 RC1 or 225 NT01 vs 205 RC1s? Or did you get to test the 225 RC1s?
If I compare two anythings (header, lubricants, cam, tire, wing, pizza) on a public forum without any disclaimers, you can assume controlled or semi-controlled conditions with comparable variants. Too many people around the world use the results I publish to make "informed" decisions. To publish anything else without disclaimers would be really irresponsible and it's just not my style. So no, this isn't 225/45 NT01's on 9's on someone else car in winter against my car on 205 RC-1's on 8's in summer. Same everything except the tire model. I'm also including Maxxis own internal tire testing data that was shared with me. |
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1089728)
Car setup changes when moving between tires are a given. At minimum, pressure and small camber tweaks based on pyrometer data.
RRs are much faster than NT-01s. They also get set up way differently - massively different tire pressure, different camber settings. If you offered me 225 NT-01s or 205 RRs for a race, I'd take the RRs every time. I've run them back to back with only air pressure changes and my data shows nearly identical grip. Maybe I'm just just running the "NT-01 programming" and not driving the hard enough, that's certainly a possibility. It's been six months since I've been on track and don't have my tire temp notes with me or I'd post that data, but I don't recall it being massively out off where I'd want it. I am planning to do more testing in a few weeks, I guess I should just wait until then to ask more questions. Thanks for the information, robert |
What about on the moon? :P
This is all fantastic data, guys. I'm particularly excited about the Toyo RR coming out in 225/45R15. It's pretty amazing that the tire options have opened up dramatically in the past few years. |
Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1089733)
?
If I compare two anythings (header, lubricants, cam, tire, wing, pizza) on a public forum without any disclaimers, you can assume controlled or semi-controlled conditions with comparable variants. Too many people around the world use the results I publish to make "informed" decisions. To publish anything else without disclaimers would be really irresponsible and it's just not my style. So no, this isn't 225/45 NT01's on 9's on someone else car in winter against my car on 205 RC-1's on 8's in summer. Same everything except the tire model. I'm also including Maxxis own internal tire testing data that was shared with me. thanks for clarifying. |
Originally Posted by Track
(Post 1089770)
thanks for clarifying. |
What about rain tires?
|
Originally Posted by EricJ
(Post 1090000)
What about rain tires?
Toyo RA-1 +:03 Toyo R888 +:04 Everything else + :06 |
Any reliable news on 245/40-15 RS-3 or Rival? I need TW140, max 23" for open/street autox.
|
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1089728)
Rivals produce the same peak lateral Gs as the NT-01, same as the RS-3. They beat the RS-3 on braking and accel grip. Fresh NT-01 to fresh Rival, we're talking a couple of tenths in either direction. A little wind or a 10deg change in track temp and the difference is 0, so it's a hard A-B test to do.
|
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1089728)
Rivals produce the same peak lateral Gs as the NT-01, same as the RS-3. They beat the RS-3 on braking and accel grip. Fresh NT-01 to fresh Rival, we're talking a couple of tenths in either direction. A little wind or a 10deg change in track temp and the difference is 0, so it's a hard A-B test to do.
I'm currently on R888s since they were so cheap. |
Better braking and acceleration grip.
|
Originally Posted by Rokomis
(Post 1090119)
While we're discussing the merits of the Rivals, what do you think the NT-01/RC-1 offers over the Rival given that they have similar lateral grip?
The RC-1 is a purpose built HPDE tire, probably the best on the US market today. The Rival is a dual duty tire, also probably the best on the US market today in it's category. Decide which fits your usage. |
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