What are you logging to make improvements to your car setup/lap times? ?
01-08-2022, 11:37 PM
#1
What are you logging to make improvements to your car setup/lap times? ?
I am currently preparing to install a AEM CD7 dash into my car which has the ability to log just about anything you can feed it. It already has a module for track mapping, g sensor, and gps etc.
I am planning to add a brake pressure sensor to see at what point of setup for the turn I am braking when doing video reviews. (If you are using one I could use a suggestion for the pressure sensor too.)
I came across these TMPS sensors that also record tire temps. Anyone using anything similar? Or have other things that you log that are helpful?
Tire Temperature and Pressure Monitoring System (TTPMS)
I am planning to add a brake pressure sensor to see at what point of setup for the turn I am braking when doing video reviews. (If you are using one I could use a suggestion for the pressure sensor too.)
I came across these TMPS sensors that also record tire temps. Anyone using anything similar? Or have other things that you log that are helpful?
Tire Temperature and Pressure Monitoring System (TTPMS)
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01-09-2022, 01:19 AM
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Canberra, sort of
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Don't overdo it, you can easily get lost in the data rabbit holes ... start with predictive lap timing aka beginners' friend. Break the track map into sectors, look at your times in each, and over succeeding sessions/days work on getting a lap strung together of all your fastest sector times. When you are consistently posting green sectors, that is time to start looking at more sophisticated driving inputs like brake pressure, steering angle, tyre temps (separate temps across trad, not an average or overall), corner speeds, braking g, etc.
Separately, you may want to log engine parameters for monitoring oil/water cooling, oil pressure, AFR, etc, this is a different exercise to driver performance.
Tuition - best done early, easier to learn good habits, than to fight bad habits. It will be the best money you spend (if you pick the right tutor).
Fun - this is meant to be fun, don't lose sight of that, especially when things don't go to plan.
My 2c anyway.
Separately, you may want to log engine parameters for monitoring oil/water cooling, oil pressure, AFR, etc, this is a different exercise to driver performance.
Tuition - best done early, easier to learn good habits, than to fight bad habits. It will be the best money you spend (if you pick the right tutor).
Fun - this is meant to be fun, don't lose sight of that, especially when things don't go to plan.
My 2c anyway.
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01-09-2022, 01:59 AM
#3
Don't overdo it, you can easily get lost in the data rabbit holes ... start with predictive lap timing aka beginners' friend. Break the track map into sectors, look at your times in each, and over succeeding sessions/days work on getting a lap strung together of all your fastest sector times. When you are consistently posting green sectors, that is time to start looking at more sophisticated driving inputs like brake pressure, steering angle, tyre temps (separate temps across trad, not an average or overall), corner speeds, braking g, etc.
Separately, you may want to log engine parameters for monitoring oil/water cooling, oil pressure, AFR, etc, this is a different exercise to driver performance.
Tuition - best done early, easier to learn good habits, than to fight bad habits. It will be the best money you spend (if you pick the right tutor).
Fun - this is meant to be fun, don't lose sight of that, especially when things don't go to plan.
My 2c anyway.
Separately, you may want to log engine parameters for monitoring oil/water cooling, oil pressure, AFR, etc, this is a different exercise to driver performance.
Tuition - best done early, easier to learn good habits, than to fight bad habits. It will be the best money you spend (if you pick the right tutor).
Fun - this is meant to be fun, don't lose sight of that, especially when things don't go to plan.
My 2c anyway.
I am already planning to log plenty of engine parameters that stuff is in my realm of understanding, but what race teams are doing for data to improve car setup is a bit beyond me. I'd think logging tire temps across the whole tire would be extremely helpful for working out alignment settings on the car.
I'm the type that is always going to be throwing parts at the car but having owned the car for 9 years now I am coming up on a wall where car setup is going to be more and more important. I've always been the type that just goes out and does laps but doesn't make many tweaks to the car so looking to improve on that.
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01-09-2022, 06:28 PM
#4
Cpt. Slow
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As you've already mentioned, driving coaching and car setup need different metrics.
I've worked or observed a number of pro and amateur racing teams, and the driving coaching data seems to be fairly universal. Basics are throttle position, brake pressure, and steering angle. These are coupled with GPS speed, location, and in car video. Gear position can be handy to find bad driving habits, usually used to eliminate unnecessary downshifts.
Setup tuning is almost universally a pyrometer and tire pressure gauge, and the ability to properly use them and analyze the data. I've seen a LOT of Longacre pyrometers at the track, the good ones record your tire temps as you take them, IIRC, they ask you to start inside to outside, and go around the car a certain direction as it records the values. Then you'll want a decent pressure gauge, my preference is an analogue one so you don't have any battery issues. Spend your money once, and use ONLY this gauge, do not switch between different gauges. This is best done with a 2nd and 3rd person in the hot pits, one for temps, one for pressure. Doing a slow in lap, driving around to your pit stall, chatting with your friend about your lap, and taking time to get out of the vehicle are all steps towards inaccurate data. However the #1 rule to vehicle setup is to pick your tire, brand, size, etc, and not cheap out on new sets. Can't tell you how many times customers have chased setup issues because of shitty tires.
If you're serious about driving improvement, you can hire a professional to fly out and do driver coaching, but just like aftermarket parts, just because you pay money doesn't mean you'll get good results.
The go to industry standard is an AIM dash/data logger. I can't think of a race series that doesn't use them. The software is much like megasquirt tuning, and has a steep learning curve, but once you're used to it, it works great. Their smarty cam is a good way to capture in car video, and overlay your data onto the video feed. They even have a Megasquirt CAN protocol (and other standalone ECU protocols). I'm not saying AIM is the only option and everything else is trash, however once you step away from the above, you're stepping away from (again, in my experience) the industry standard, so you'll find less help, less comparable data, etc. As for the brake pressure sensor, most ECUs and dashes have generic sensor inputs you can use to calibrate to any sensor. You'll want a 0-2000psi sensor for the brakes, usually in the front axle.
Here are my suggestions and a quick google search price:
AIM MXS dash: $2599
AIM smarty cam: $1149
Longacre pyrometer: $399
Longacre pressure gauge: $50
AIM 2000psi pressure gauge: $140
Yes, this ***** expensive. And this topic can go on for ever, so if you have any questions still, feel free to ask. Best way to start is basic weight savings, new tires, up to date preventative maintenance, healthy dyno numbers, good suspension, good alignment, and start aiming for Spec Miata times. You can begin to look at pressure and temp data while you do this, but just use it to get your tire pressures in a decent range, you're looking for a ~20 degree delta from inside to outside, if you're hotter outside, you're under pressure, and visa versa.
Also keep in mind everything I've said, or what you've heard on track, might be completely wrong. With experience comes the ability to filter out the good advice from the bad, hopefully.
Good luck!
I've worked or observed a number of pro and amateur racing teams, and the driving coaching data seems to be fairly universal. Basics are throttle position, brake pressure, and steering angle. These are coupled with GPS speed, location, and in car video. Gear position can be handy to find bad driving habits, usually used to eliminate unnecessary downshifts.
Setup tuning is almost universally a pyrometer and tire pressure gauge, and the ability to properly use them and analyze the data. I've seen a LOT of Longacre pyrometers at the track, the good ones record your tire temps as you take them, IIRC, they ask you to start inside to outside, and go around the car a certain direction as it records the values. Then you'll want a decent pressure gauge, my preference is an analogue one so you don't have any battery issues. Spend your money once, and use ONLY this gauge, do not switch between different gauges. This is best done with a 2nd and 3rd person in the hot pits, one for temps, one for pressure. Doing a slow in lap, driving around to your pit stall, chatting with your friend about your lap, and taking time to get out of the vehicle are all steps towards inaccurate data. However the #1 rule to vehicle setup is to pick your tire, brand, size, etc, and not cheap out on new sets. Can't tell you how many times customers have chased setup issues because of shitty tires.
If you're serious about driving improvement, you can hire a professional to fly out and do driver coaching, but just like aftermarket parts, just because you pay money doesn't mean you'll get good results.
The go to industry standard is an AIM dash/data logger. I can't think of a race series that doesn't use them. The software is much like megasquirt tuning, and has a steep learning curve, but once you're used to it, it works great. Their smarty cam is a good way to capture in car video, and overlay your data onto the video feed. They even have a Megasquirt CAN protocol (and other standalone ECU protocols). I'm not saying AIM is the only option and everything else is trash, however once you step away from the above, you're stepping away from (again, in my experience) the industry standard, so you'll find less help, less comparable data, etc. As for the brake pressure sensor, most ECUs and dashes have generic sensor inputs you can use to calibrate to any sensor. You'll want a 0-2000psi sensor for the brakes, usually in the front axle.
Here are my suggestions and a quick google search price:
AIM MXS dash: $2599
AIM smarty cam: $1149
Longacre pyrometer: $399
Longacre pressure gauge: $50
AIM 2000psi pressure gauge: $140
Yes, this ***** expensive. And this topic can go on for ever, so if you have any questions still, feel free to ask. Best way to start is basic weight savings, new tires, up to date preventative maintenance, healthy dyno numbers, good suspension, good alignment, and start aiming for Spec Miata times. You can begin to look at pressure and temp data while you do this, but just use it to get your tire pressures in a decent range, you're looking for a ~20 degree delta from inside to outside, if you're hotter outside, you're under pressure, and visa versa.
Also keep in mind everything I've said, or what you've heard on track, might be completely wrong. With experience comes the ability to filter out the good advice from the bad, hopefully.
Good luck!
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01-09-2022, 10:25 PM
#5
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Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 189
Total Cats: 47
I would really consider the AIM dash over the AEM. Better data analysis and way more track focused. And the majority of club racers running data acq on their race cars are running AIM, which can't be understated.
For example, the AEM doesn't have a built-in track database, so every track you go to you have to screw around with setting start/finish position. With the AIM all I do is start the car, the GPS automatically determines the track I'm at, and I go driving.
Your sensors are broken down into 3 categories:
Driver improvement can be really basic. Fundamentally you only need to look at 1 channel: speed. Higher avg speed = faster lap. Simple as that. Then you can take it a step further with the basic inputs: brake pressure and throttle pedal (and optionally steering angle too). The new AIM units using the GPS08 module have ~1meter accuracy, so you can now accurately use the GPS data to see car positioning on track when you're comparing laps. The older GPS sensors from even 5-10 years ago were like 3-5 meter positional accuracy, so not very useful as far as understanding car placement when overlayed on a satellite image (which AIM automatically does in the Analysis 3 software). My favorite sensor is brake pressure. On an NA/NB miata w/o a fancy ABS setup this has been the biggest area of improvement for me. Seeing the shape of the braking zones tells you how quickly you're getting on the brakes, how hard you're pressing, how consistent you are with the pedal, and how well you're heel/toe'ing. All the other cars I drive on track have modern ABS, so I try to focus on braking in my NB with shitty OEM ABS (usually disabled). When I first got an AIM setup, I went buck wild with math channels and looking at eleventeen channels. But over time I've slowly pared them down to just the basics. The one main drawback of systems like AIM/Motec, etc. is that they only record what you've done, not like a theoretical limit. This is where some additional setups like the Garmin and Apex Pro come into play. I don't use them, but they can be a benefit to guys that don't know they're not maximizing the car is certain areas. Competitor data can also fill in here too, which again, is why getting something that will allow you to easily share and analyze data from other drivers and cars is extremely beneficial.
Chassis setup then gets extremely complex. Not only from the number of sensors, but also the understanding and time required to utilize them effectively. I have no chassis sensors on my Miata other than brake pressure. For club level, tire temps and pressures are sufficient. One tip is that you should have a purpose in your head before every single session. Whether that's focusing on improving specific corners or trying different alignment/ rake/ ride height/ tire pressure/ shock/ sway bar settings feels. A lot of my setup changes are based on what didn't work. And only make one change at a time!
For example, the AEM doesn't have a built-in track database, so every track you go to you have to screw around with setting start/finish position. With the AIM all I do is start the car, the GPS automatically determines the track I'm at, and I go driving.
Your sensors are broken down into 3 categories:
- Vehicle health
- Driver improvement
- Chassis setup
Driver improvement can be really basic. Fundamentally you only need to look at 1 channel: speed. Higher avg speed = faster lap. Simple as that. Then you can take it a step further with the basic inputs: brake pressure and throttle pedal (and optionally steering angle too). The new AIM units using the GPS08 module have ~1meter accuracy, so you can now accurately use the GPS data to see car positioning on track when you're comparing laps. The older GPS sensors from even 5-10 years ago were like 3-5 meter positional accuracy, so not very useful as far as understanding car placement when overlayed on a satellite image (which AIM automatically does in the Analysis 3 software). My favorite sensor is brake pressure. On an NA/NB miata w/o a fancy ABS setup this has been the biggest area of improvement for me. Seeing the shape of the braking zones tells you how quickly you're getting on the brakes, how hard you're pressing, how consistent you are with the pedal, and how well you're heel/toe'ing. All the other cars I drive on track have modern ABS, so I try to focus on braking in my NB with shitty OEM ABS (usually disabled). When I first got an AIM setup, I went buck wild with math channels and looking at eleventeen channels. But over time I've slowly pared them down to just the basics. The one main drawback of systems like AIM/Motec, etc. is that they only record what you've done, not like a theoretical limit. This is where some additional setups like the Garmin and Apex Pro come into play. I don't use them, but they can be a benefit to guys that don't know they're not maximizing the car is certain areas. Competitor data can also fill in here too, which again, is why getting something that will allow you to easily share and analyze data from other drivers and cars is extremely beneficial.
Chassis setup then gets extremely complex. Not only from the number of sensors, but also the understanding and time required to utilize them effectively. I have no chassis sensors on my Miata other than brake pressure. For club level, tire temps and pressures are sufficient. One tip is that you should have a purpose in your head before every single session. Whether that's focusing on improving specific corners or trying different alignment/ rake/ ride height/ tire pressure/ shock/ sway bar settings feels. A lot of my setup changes are based on what didn't work. And only make one change at a time!
Last edited by engineered2win; 01-09-2022 at 10:52 PM.
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01-09-2022, 10:46 PM
#6
I guess I should have asked this question before buying the AEM unit I didn't realize the AIM dash was favored my choice was also somewhat swayed by the AEM being more street friendly and I get a discount on them. I think it will work fine for time being though, I am not traveling around the country yet so if some setup is needed for start/finish lines it isn't a deal breaker for me. I am curious how accurate the GPS is compared to AIM, the setup I have actually has 2 GPS units.
I will be logging everything your both said short of steering angle, I'd have to work out a setup for that.
I have a higher end air gauge and I've never used a pyrometer as I'm typically at the track solo but I need to work out something for tire temps.
The Smartycam looks like a nice unit and my 4k gopro is nearing its time for replacement so I will have to look into it, a start/stop feature would be welcome.
I will be logging everything your both said short of steering angle, I'd have to work out a setup for that.
I have a higher end air gauge and I've never used a pyrometer as I'm typically at the track solo but I need to work out something for tire temps.
The Smartycam looks like a nice unit and my 4k gopro is nearing its time for replacement so I will have to look into it, a start/stop feature would be welcome.
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