See, I just don't understand this logic.

If you don't have $10k in the bank, then you most certainly cannot afford a $600/mo car payment.

I completely agree.

I guess I should have used the word the can "make" a $600/month payment vs "afford."

Funny thing is, I bought my miata with the sole purpose of "stancing" it, having some 15x8 et0, and hooning around.

When I started actually driving my miata, i was like, why the hell would I ruin this car?

And then I found you guys and steered me straight. It was quite the moment.

Ah, so young grasshopper.

I cringe at the thought of cars as a "monthly payment".

Q: "How much did that car cost?"
A: "Oh, it's only $400/month!"

"$400/month"? Are you focking kidding me? How do you plan to pay for your car in 6 months when you get laid off? You don't simply stop needing the car. That $400/month doesn't just stop happening. Tell me how much that car really cost you. Why won't you say it? You don't know?

When I hear that, I immediately understand the the "buyer" of the car is unable to comprehend the value of $20,000. Sure, it's easy to comprehend $400 this month, and next month, and the month after that, all the way until the end of eternity... but to really comprehend spending $20,000 at once for a new no-frills car... too many people just don't get it. I can spend 1/5th that, and get more car because I'm not a month-to-month idiot. If I ever spend $20,000 or more on a car, it will be under one of two circumstances: 1. That vehicle must have a primary purpose of creating monetary profit. 2: The total amount spent on the car will be less than or equal to 2 months of after-tax household income.

I absolutely hate monthly payments on anything. I pay a monthly payment on my mortgage because one does not simply find real property that is 5 years old, 100% functional, in a decent area, and valued at 1/5th or less than the cost of a "new" real property. I also make monthly payments on services because I have no other choice. When Sirius radio was in it's relative infancy, they offered a $500 lifetime subscription option. I had very little income, had just graduated college, had $45,000 in student debt, and did not have a very stable job, but I'll be damned if I didn't spend $500 on a lifetime subscription to Sirius radio. Now, 7 years later, the rest of you fuckers are paying something like $14/month for SiriusXM. Mine's still "free", and it includes internet radio.

If my internet/cellular/satellite provider walked up to my door today and said "For $5000 we'll give you free high speed internet/talk, text, and data/programming for life" I'd be like "Is there a faster way to pay than giving a check to you?" $5000 is an amount of money that approximately makes financial sense for any of those services at my current monthly rates. Much higher than that, and it soon becomes a "no thank you".

The fact that places such as Rent-a-Center exist make me wonder how humanity has managed to get this far.

Never underestimate the stupidity of people when it comes to money. That's the way to get rich.

What about borrowing money at interest rates that beat real inflation?

While I generally don't like payments there are some times when it isn't the worst thing in the world.

Small Example: The 65" TV in my living room, sure I had the $1500 in cash to buy it outright, but why not take the 0% for 12 months and pay $125 a month while leaving MY money in a money market and continuing to grow.

I appreciate that debt isn't good, but the over-the-top Dave Ramsey approach swings back to far in the other direction, in my humble opinion.

Or a 9month CD or something similar. higher interest and less temptation to spend that monies

Totally agree with you. Problem is, people don't have self control, so if they do that, they'll think they have more money, then get more stuff, til they're all out of money.

You're the reason the Pope hates America.

Ah, ha! I have finally found my purpose in life.

Came here to post this.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahagagagagagahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahzhaha!


90% of the US population does not comprehend this. Not only that, but they think that notion is ludicrous.

Sadly, I suspect that you are correct. Personally, I can't even imagine how I would justify entering into such an arrangement... But then, I'm also utterly flabbergasted by the retail price of new cars in general. I mean... $30,000 for a Toyota Camry? This is like a bizarro-world version of car ownership.


Sidebar: Over the past few years, we've had a couple of "government shutdowns."

Am I the only one who things that shutting down the majority of the services of the Federal government is actually a good thing, and that we ought to do this more often? I would vote for a Presidential candidate who campaigned on that issue alone, even is she was also a gay, communist hooker who drove a Kia and freely admitted to having sex with farm animals and sacrificing kittens to her Lord and Master Satan.

Well, it looks like Kraftwerks maybe in the running for a CARB EO for their Rotrex Miata kits.
I just received this via email after I emailed them asking them if they had plans for an EO.

"We really appreciate the fan feedback! Kraftwerks does plan on achieving Carb Legality for its supercharger kits. That is something that is currently in the works. Getting a product Carb approved especially a supercharger kit is very lengthy, it is a long process. I would recommend keeping an eye on the Kraftwerks facebook and instagram page as those are the first places to make any type of announcements pertaining to the kits. Let me know if you have any other questions."

Now, Ive read that they were planning on doing this before, but it never happened. But as I understand, those were with old kits that really sucked and these are of a newer and better design.

As much as Ive read on here about God having a turbo on his personal car, if they do get an EO, ill be purchasing a Rotrex kit from Kraftwerks. Im too old and lazy to be looking for shady smog shops and uninstalling and reinstalling FI kits just to smog my car.

My only sidebar would be to compare the equipment, power, reliability (ie surviving no maintenance), and safety of a modern vehicle to 20 or 30 years vs inflation.

When it comes to vehicles, yes new ones are more expensive, but you get a LOT more for your money.

I'm trying to remember how long they've been claiming that. It's been at least since late 2009. CARB certification isn't easy, but the process takes months, not years.

Four years and counting, I'm not holding my breath. Besides which, the C30-74 centrifugal supercharger featured in the Kraftwerks system combines all the worst qualities of both a turbo and a supercharger in one expensive, torque-deficient package.

As much as I detest the idea on general principle, for a street car I'd steer someone towards an MP62 kit before suggesting a Rotrex / Kraftwerks unit. (Not that I'm condoning the MP62, I'm just saying that it's less awful than the C30. And you can get it with an actual CARB sticker today, not merely a vague promise of one sometime in the future.)

A lot more what?

I ask this seriously. Yes, I know that a new Camry has a heated, power-adjustable, leather-lined prostate massager available as a $2,350 option, but in terms of reliably transporting me from point A to point B, I can't see how it would perform this function any more efficiently than my 23 year old NA with 220,000 miles on it that I paid $800 for. It looks worse than a bag of candied assholes (and doesn't smell much better), but it's just about the most dependable thing I've ever owned.

This would be a street car.

Kraftwerks of FFS. Whoever wins, we lose.

Probably because some of us like showing up to work/the inlaws/job interviews not smelling like a bag of candied assholes.

Yeah, you are right!!

More TPMS.

More DBW.

More Rear Cameras.

More Gas Guzzler Tax.

More Black Boxes.

Whatever happened to being able to just buy a car? The next government mandate is probably going to be "automatic collision detection and braking systems". Fuck that asshattery. For $30,000, I might get a thousand more extra unnecessary features for the extra $15,000, but I don't get any more "car" for that extra $15,000.

I like having a DD with leather with heated seats, nice stereo, lots of insulation to keep the wind noise out, being able to roll down other windows or lock doors without stopping the car, etc.

If you don't, keep driving old cars. No one is forcing you too.

I feel like I stumbled on the GRM forum where everything that isn't an '89 CRX HF is superfluous.

The point I was trying to get at, reference Joe Perez's quote of $30,000 for a new Toyota Camry, (That's probably a fully loaded and optioned camry at 30k, but it's still a 30k car) while suggesting the point of view that the Camry's only extraordinary trait is it's uncanny ordinarity as a car, is that the price of a car has skyrocketed over just the past decade without the average car buyer really having the financial ability to support it. You may enjoy the heated seats in your DD, and I can tell you without a doubt that I enjoy the heated leather seats that I installed in my Miata DD, but for the overwhelming majority of Americans, myself included, there are far better things to spend that money on than the "extras" that add "a few dollars" to a monthly payment on a car whose value is relatively inconceivable in absolute dollar terms to the average buyer of the car. The Yaris, which is the bottom of the Toyota lineup as far as frills are concerned, still runs $14,400 for the base model, but it is just as capable as the Camry at ferrying it's owner to his workplace or family residence. Not that many years ago, there were far fewer "Nanny features" intended to "save the life of just one child..." Those safety "features" have driven the price up on all cars. As a case study, consider the Hyundai Accent. The Accent was designed to be the most inexpensive car on the market. It meets all of the government safety requirements and comes in at a meager $14,645 MSRP.

I added this sentence and these 4 line breaks to try and break up the "wall of text" feel; but, rest assured, this really is a wall of text in disguise.

In 2005, 9 years earlier, the Retail was under $10,000 for a base model; that's under $10k for a brand new, perfectly safe, transportation appliance. In all reality, that's only an annual nominal price increase of something like 6% per year, which equates to a real price increase more along the lines of 2-3% per year over that same period. For a car whose sole purpose is to be the lowest cost new car on the market, though, a 2-3% annual increase in the real price is absolutely ridiculous. On the contrary, I would expect to see a real price decrease if anything, as economies of scale, process improvements, and technology advances should drive the price down - this point of view is, of course, neglecting materials costs changes over time as well, which would have increased as the value of the dollar has fallen, but nonetheless, I still think it's a bit ridiculous. I'd also like to point out, though, the discrepancy of 2005 MSRP versus 2005 actual selling price. I distinctly recall advertised pricing for the Hyundai Accent at $5,995. Forget, for a second, that the dealerships and the manufacturer were probably sharing a small or negligible loss on the $5,995 sales price, and consider that today's MSRP is a nominal 15% year-after-year increase on the price of the minimalist car. That significant jump doesn't get explained simply by economic markets, you now have to consider that some small portion of that 15% was influenced by new and unnecessary nanny laws (TPMS mandated in 2005), while a larger portion of that was probably influenced by consumer demands. (I NEED a transportation appliance that not only gets me from A to B, but it MUST also be well equipped).

LOL! You're still reading!

The base model of the Hyundai Accent GLS features a massively overpowered 138-hp engine, 6-speaker AM/FM/iPOD/USB/KitchenSink/SiriusXM/CD/MP3 player, Air conditioning, Power Windows, Electronic Stability Control, Traction Control, 4-wheel ABS, power door locks... In 2005, it was 104hp, manual crank windows, A/C was a $795 option, and if you wanted ABS, it was nearly $1,700. At $5,995, the 2005 Hyundai Accent was just as good of a transportation appliance as a fully loaded and optioned $30,000 2014 Toyota Camry, and it even had Hyundai's 10-year 100k mile warranty. To the average person who couldn't afford the $6,000 Hyundai, today's awesomesauce Camry with style, convenience, comfort, and safety features oozing from every conceivable orface cost a mere $400 more. $400 more this month, and then $400 more next month, and then $400 the month after that... - hell, that makes that $120/month cell phone bill seem like pocket change!!!

/walloftext

I also remember a dealership in my area offering a "Brand New Hyundai Accent for only $1 with the purchase of any other car!!!" I guess they were REALLY trying to get rid of the things...

TL;DR

Ultimately, who cares? People are going to keep doing stupid things, and if cars weren't getting expensive they'd spend their money on other overpriced crap because its what they do.

I've never made payments on any car in my life. Heck, even my house is completely paid off after about 5 years of ownership. I'm sure Joe and others are like that, and they will continue to be, while the rest of 'Muricuhh continues to get into moar debt and buy things they really can't afford.

Negative rep for the damn novella. Just kidding I just didn't read it.

Ultimately I couldn't give less of a shit and whatever someone wants to do with their money is their business.

I put nearly 1/3 of my income into savings/401k and I could leave the cozy bar I'm sitting at and be run over by a car, I guess all that money in addition to life insurance policy will help the wife to enjoy the rest of her life.......

Essentially, I think there needs to be a healthy balance between living off credit and being a prepper. But I realize that restricts ones ability to look down on others for their choices.

You'd think that, wouldn't you?

Actually, $31,275 is the base MSRP for a 2014 Camry XLE 4 door with no options. You do get a few "upscale" standard features for that (V6, heated seats, etc) but that's otherwise free of any add-ons such as SatNav ($1,620), Illuminated Door Sill Enhancements ($299), Blind Spot Monitor ($500), VIP Security System ($360), Remote Engine Start ($499), floor mats ($343), Paint Protection Film ($395), Body Side Molding ($209), Safety Connect (Toyota OnStar) ($515), Rear Lip Spoiler ($159), etc.

(And when was the last time you saw a base-model anything sitting on a dealer lot?)


If heated seats (and a few minor cosmetic items) are not important to you, then you can get the SE model for "only" $28,070.

Which is still fucking insane.


For that matter, why does a fucking SatNav system cost $1,620? My Garmin Nuvi was about $120, and it has the advantage of being portable and easily updated with new maps via the USB port. I will never understand why people pay money to have inferior products locked into their dashboard.





Sadly, I believe that you are probably correct.

I am annoyed principally because I would actually like to be able to purchase a "basic" car, and yet I am unable to because I represent a minority which the automakers elect not to serve.




Negative props awarded for not merely responding to a post without reading it, but for actually admitting this as though it were a badge of pride.

Why did I need to read more of his ranting about cheap vehicles that he has done in multiple threads?

If you don't want a new vehicle, don't buy one.

I promise, no one cares.

As an 18 year old beginning to join the adult world, this is enlightening.

Just chiming in to say that credit/payments are not the devil if you can manage your money correctly.
Yeah, I have a car payment. I also have a credit card with a balance that never goes above $500. And my credit score is better than both of my parents. And enough savings to pay off the car if I felt the need to.

inb4 "youre a slave of american consumerism"

That is all.

No, they're not the devil.

And gonorrhea isn't nearly as bad as AIDS. But neither one is as nice as cake.

Ahhhh, Joe. Joe, Joe, Joe... Let me help you understand how manufacturers somehow find buyers for all those Camrys.

Because Vagina.

I'm a practical guy (perhaps not to the extent that you are, admittedly) and I can appreciate the merits of a Beater Car as much as anybody else. I like quirky old cars, their "personality" if you will.

But I like Vagina a lot more. I mean, a LOT.

Vaginas are really fun, and take my word for it, much more effective at keeping you warm and happy than any Cobbled Together Kitchen Faucet Heating System could ever be. Plus, a pretty good percentage are attached to really nice people; heck, some of my best friends have had, and made available to me regularly, a Vagina.

Now given that the bulk of these Vaginas are going to be found on Girls, if one wants to live with Vagina, one must also learn to live with girls, which can be challenging because most of them are *not* also men, and therefore somewhat inscrutable. The vast majority of these Vagina-laden creatures lack not only the mechanical understanding of cars, but also the smug sense of accomplishment us Beater Drivers get from squeezing more miles out of something that's paid for. Indeed, to them it's just a junky, undependable car.

(Sure, there are exceptions to this rule; there *are* some fine women out there who are "car guys", our Resident Too Good To Be True Token Hot Girl Car Guy "Rosca-whatever" is a perfect example (Hollaback girl... I'm rich and nice.) but again, thats a total fluke...)

Anyway, it comes down to a very simple equation: Happy Wife = Happy Life. Mama wants a Camry with seat heaters to keep that fine booty warm? No problem. Mama wants sixty gazillion airbags to keep her and our offspring safe from idiots? I'm down. Mama wants the optional GPS navigation because she's not so good at directions? Sign me the fuck up.

(True story: At the same time that I was happily daily-ing a 68 Chevy "Scooby" Van, my (then) wife was rolling in a brand new C320. It made her feel special, and I would hope "loved", and it made me happy to give it to her.)

touche :rofl:

:giggle:

Props

My girlfriend knows more about cars than me and is building a '56 F100... Lucky? I think so.

Pics of girlfriend working on '56 F100 :party:

Nope.

Because she knows what your fancy parts actually cost.

I'm glad my wife doesn't know what XIDAs cost.

She only knows vintage cars...I hope.

Most of the "working" at the moment is waiting for money for parts. I'll post some stuff about her f100 with my Marley with her and mine cats together on a photo shoot. :party:

First of all, props. I certainly respect a good rant.

But you haven't solved the riddle, all you've done is assign a name to it.

Let's just stipulate that I completely agree with everything you wrote vis-a-vis "The Woman" and her influence on the car-buying process. This does not in any way explain the underlying motivations behind this behavior.

In other words, even if we accept that women are, by nature, somehow uniquely inclined towards irrational decision-making when it comes to shopping for an automobile (and I am by NO means satisfied that this is, in fact, true), nothing about this extremely well-written and entertaining block of prose adequately explains to me *why* the sort of rational decision-making processes which are at play in the purchase of everyday commodities such as socks, canned tuna fish and flatscreen TVs go completely out the window when car-buying is involved.

I don't know. I buy nice socks too.

See, you're being an Engineer, assuming that the "Rational Scale" is a constant. It's not, because Vagina, or more specifically the brain steering it through this world. The Flat Screen decision must be scrutinized on the basis of its effect on the Sports Viewing Habits of the male half of the household, the impact of a 72" screen on the decor and overall feng shui of the house, how it compares to Suzy's new flat screen, is it ostentatious or not... Same with tuna; the kids are going to eat it, dolphins may have been harmed, maybe it contains mercury, how does it hold up to red onion in tuna salad.. You get the idea. Cars, on the other hand, are just cars. Seat heater; check. GPS; check. Airbags for the kiddos; check.

$35k for a Camry; check. Heck, it's only a few bucks a month more for the whiz-bang stuff anyway. She's happy; you're happy. Cause/effect, and one of the few in this world where you have total control of it.

But there's more to it than access to The HooHah. It's a pride thing too. Fuck if I'm going to have *my* wife, my little princess, rolling in some shitty car. Just wouldn't have it.

So the truth comes out. It's not Vagina, really, at least not completely. It's Penis.

On MT its always penis.

It will always end in penis.

I'm trying to replace my wife's 305k mi 1998 SUV and she isn't really interested. She has taken great care of it, inside and out, and I've kept it maintained. She likes it and is comfortable with it. We bought it at the dealer-only auction because I knew a guy, for $7800 back in 2002 with 65k miles. It is still worth $2000-2500. That's not a bad return on investment.

We'll probably spend $8-10k on a replacement and try to keep it as long. And for the people who cry about needing new for reliability, we could replace a trans (if it ever needs one) for the price of one monthly payment on a new SUV.

Either you're looking at 100k Benz SUV's or you have a line on REALLY cheap transmissions.

The last transmission I bought was for a Tundra. It was $325.

Cheap indeed.

If you're going to spend $35,000 on fancy amenities anyways, why the hell would you spend that money on a Camry and not

A 385hp Hyundai Equus Ultimate with 16,000 miles on it.

Or a used Ariel Atom.

FTFY.

Or 17.5 $2000 miatas

Having once suffered the ownership of a used V-12 BMW model, I expect there's a pretty darn good reason why that SL has already lost over a 100k in value. I'd expect it would only continue for the poor bastard who buys it next. So, as much as I hate the Camry too, it would actually be a better bargain than the SL in the long run.

.02

True enough.

my first instinct was to post something sensible like an M5, but i got carried away by the magic 500 HP number.


Besides, a Hyundai? Seriously? That's just embarrassing. As in, it would be bad enough to just own one in the first place, but to admit to your friends that you paid $35k for it, and then have them say "WTF? You could have bought an M5 for that!" would just be more than I could bear.

:giggle:

And I like the new Genesis Coupe.

Hey, I'm not the one who fully inserted a gerbil's tail into his urethra, secured a zip-tie around the base of the glans to hold the animal firmly in place, and then went parading down the aisle of a Roman-catholic church during Easter mass, naked but for a pair of bejeweled cowboy boots, with a terrified, panicking rodent swinging from the end of his dick.

But I've now got a better story than you ever will. Although I'm never allowed near that church again, no regrets.

nvm