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Old 03-01-2010, 03:22 PM   #1
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Default coldside water to air cooling

Hello,
I have got 00 NB miata (33Tmiles on odo), coldside supercharger kit with mp 62 blower with 5th injector called e-cool,105/65 mm pulley, 10,5psi ,209hp
After approx. 5000 miles of supercharged, car began to consumption of oil (1liter per 2000miles)
I made a compression test and result was: 1st-100psi 2nd-75psi 3rd-70psi 4th-90psi.
I opened the engine - It seems to be a problem with overheating of piston rings especialy on 2nd and 3rd cylinder.

I would like to install radiator (heat exchanger), with its own liquid circuit with circulator pump and cooler in front of the car.
My problem is that I am limited with dimensions of this radiator ,like you can see in attachment : red lining - opening of blower screws - dimensions are 6inches lenght x 3,5 inch width x 2 inches depht.

Mercedes apply this water to air intercooling method in C32 and SL55 amg models, but their heat exchangers are bigger.

Do you think, it will be helpful for droping down the air temperature inside of the intake manifold?
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Old 03-01-2010, 07:33 PM   #2
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Nobody?
I found some project with laminova w/a intercooler in the intake manifold (coldside),
is it possible to mount two laminova cores to standard coldside manifold ?
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Old 03-01-2010, 07:57 PM   #3
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It's been done before. Do a search for "Big Gulp" on miataforum.com . IIRC it was that car.
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Old 03-01-2010, 08:29 PM   #4
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Or just do water/meth injection. Contrary to popular internet wisdom, its perfectly safe and can help quite a bit with cooling. With a positive displacement blower, you will want to inject a good bit more than you would at the same power level with a turbo or centrifugal blower.
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Old 03-11-2010, 08:44 PM   #5
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I'm not sure what your boost level is, but it sounds like your primary issue may be proper air/fuel and ignition tuning. The lack of intercooler may limit your power level, but ensuring your tune is right is the key to engine longevity. Also, make sure your cooling system is working properly. Otherwise, WI will be the easiest cooling solution to impliment on a cool side setup.

BJ
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Old 03-12-2010, 11:57 PM   #6
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Whats your A/F ratios look like, you do have a wideband..... right?
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Old 03-13-2010, 02:21 AM   #7
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His a/f might be on for some of the cylinders, but not all being he has a 5th injector. Think about scraping that and getting larger injects for starters. Second, check your plug type, go a set or 2 colder. also check your tivming system. Are you pinging? Oh and don't forget, change your oil types, and change it more often. You might also think about a exaust temp gauge and a block temp gauge. Know what your engine is doing!!!
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Old 03-13-2010, 03:10 AM   #8
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You're trying to fix the wrong problem. Its not cooling you should be worried about but that utter piece of **** 5th injector you have for extra fueling on top of no proper engine management. Bigger injectors+proper engine management is what you should be looking into, not another heat exchanger.
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Old 03-13-2010, 06:09 AM   #9
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I have been tracking a FFS coldside for 3 years now without issue. I'm running 125/65 pulley setup and run copious amount of water injection. More specifically 2gph into the TB and 2gph into the manifold. I'm using a 200psi pump, the gph ratings are at 100psi.

I am running larger injectors, 315cc/min, as well as the 5th injector as supplemental fuel. Not the most ideal setup, but it works.
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Old 03-13-2010, 02:30 PM   #10
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Hopefully you are getting the idea. I have been running 12psi boost into my stock 99 engine for about 5 yrs or so and it was running 10psi before that. I have tracked the car several times and I don't baby it. I wish I had a standalone, but when I started about 8 years ago, the FM PB Link was the best option available. I'm now running a "collection" of piggy-back's and 4 additional injectors. Anytime I have changed the configuration, I have the car properly tuned to around 12.5 A/F and timing retarded across the various areas of boost/rpm to eliminate detonation. I monitor my a/f regularly with a narrow band and I check my a/f ratio with a wide band from time to time. I have enhanced my cooling system and added oil cooling. I have added multiple gauges to monitor the engine vitals. Boost done properly is not typically cheap and requires some due dilligence.

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Old 03-15-2010, 07:28 PM   #11
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My a/f under the boost was oscilate 11.5-12.5. I have got 3 pc pro cards :( (I know what will be follow on this forum) connected to stock ecu now.
I had some problems with adjustment first 100-200 miles after supercharged, without wideband (pinging ,low octane fuel,bad BBK throttle body,no restrictor in pcv hose.. )
I dont feel to equal for adjusting proper engine management myself (I dont know what to do with alternator regulator,cel codes readings and everything else...) Here it is problem to find somebody with expierences with engine management tuning and especially for miata. And maybe english is also limiting factor to do it myself.
Now I rebuilding the engine,installing new stock pistons ,but with 9,0:1 cr from older NA 1.8engine, new clutch kit, and I also thinking about coolant reroute, installation of light green denso 305 ccm injectors from supra,which I ordered a few years ago (before I ordered complete kit from ffs).
Do U think,is it a good idea to install stock IAT inside of the intake manifold ?
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:30 PM   #12
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To Myspeed123> I used colder types spark plugs, and 10W-60 oil.I have got only wideband gauge,intake pressure manifold gauge,and linearized oil pressure gauge with vdo 0-80psi sender.
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:32 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elektron View Post
My a/f under the boost was oscilate 11.5-12.5. I have got 3 pc pro cards :( (I know what will be follow on this forum) connected to stock ecu now.
I had some problems with adjustment first 100-200 miles after supercharged, without wideband (pinging ,low octane fuel,bad BBK throttle body,no restrictor in pcv hose.. )
I dont feel to equal for adjusting proper engine management myself (I dont know what to do with alternator regulator,cel codes readings and everything else...) Here it is problem to find somebody with expierences with engine management tuning and especially for miata. And maybe english is also limiting factor to do it myself.
Now I rebuilding the engine,installing new stock pistons ,but with 9,0:1 cr from older NA 1.8engine, new clutch kit, and I also thinking about coolant reroute, installation of light green denso 305 ccm injectors from supra,which I ordered a few years ago (before I ordered complete kit from ffs).
Do U think,is it a good idea to install stock IAT inside of the intake manifold ?
:bowr ofl:

get 10 more
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Old 03-15-2010, 08:05 PM   #14
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Cos if one won't work another will!

Seriously though, what's the logic behind 3 devices? you're limited by how much fuel the injector can physically throw, adding another PC won't improve on that?
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Old 03-15-2010, 08:08 PM   #15
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Ditch the ******* powercard, it sucks, everything you know about it is a lie.

The bullshit and misinformation surrounding that little device makes my blood boil...
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Old 03-17-2010, 10:51 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richyvrlimited View Post
Cos if one won't work another will!

Seriously though, what's the logic behind 3 devices? you're limited by how much fuel the injector can physically throw, adding another PC won't improve on that?
Card 1 is for lengthening stock injector pulse. No different than any of the other barebones, low-boost piggybacks out there.

Card 2 is like your typical AIC, controlling a secondary injector set (in this case just the 1 injector). No different than what anyone else would do if they attempted to keep stock injectors for ODBII.

Card 3 is not for fueling, it's to retard timing.

In the grand scheme of things, there are plenty of other old-*** setups that used auxillary injectors, individual timing controls and a host of bandaids. Therefore, Card 1 and 3 are no different than any other bandaid setup.

Card 2 draws the most flak because it is to cool charge, add fuel, and under the FFS setup evenly disperse amonst cylinders. It has always been a controversial gray area. Since they're all under the "PCPro" banner, they share the ridicule, but at least for tasks 1 and 3, they work as well as any other comparable piggyback/bandaid.

If you're not sold on E-Cool as an AIC, you'd probably also avoid the same thing whether controlled by SDS or Link, such as on the old CA-spec FM Turbo kits using Auxiliary injectors on a tapped Throttle Body.

It is not really the PCPro that should be questioned, it is how it was utilized, which is e-Cool.
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Old 03-18-2010, 08:13 AM   #17
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Cheers for that RunninOnEmpty.

it makes more sense now and I can see the logic behind needing three, but I wouldn't do it myself.

Appropriately sized injectors and full control are definitely FTW.
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Old 03-18-2010, 09:43 AM   #18
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Dude come on...

Average price I could find for the P-P-P-P-POWERCARD!!!! forced induction was $249.99 and you've got THREE of them. $747.00 plus shipping.

There is REALLY NO EXCUSE FOR THIS!

If you want the car to really make power ditch ALL of the bandaids and get some real engine management that can actually be tuned.. Not some atari based piece of crap that blinks like a christmas tree.

for $750 you can buy a Megasquirt PNP. You could buy one of Brain's Megasquirts and probably con someone into building a boomslang harness for it. Or pickup a ******* book, teach yourself how to solder and do it all yourself for $400.00!

On 10psi that car should be making more than 200 at the wheels, and if you had proper fuel and timing tables it probably would.

I didn't know the FIRST thing about engine management, tuning, or anything related when I ordered my MS. All I knew is I had a forced induction pickup and didn't want to pay 2000$ for the EECIV equipment to tune it properly myself. Not saying I know that much about it now, but enough that I've managed to figure out how to keep my motor from flying apart with a crappy supercharger on it along with tune up a friends turbo car with 17psi...
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Old 03-18-2010, 11:18 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elesjuan View Post
Dude come on...
There is REALLY NO EXCUSE FOR THIS!
Totally, I don't disagree at all that full ECUs and correctly sized injectors offer benefits.

It's disappointing that people bash something they don't understand. Bash it all you want, but bash it because it is a bandaid, not specifically because it's the PCPro. If the OP was running with SDS or something instead of PCPro, I bet he wouldn't have gotten all this crap.

There are plenty of other products just like PCPro that never get the same heat. Maybe it's because they are sponsors. I dunno.

The OP is heading towards the right direction - trying something to avoid the use of 5th injector. All the talk about bigger injectors and better management is good, but isn't going to help him cool his intake charge yet.

I'm with Tann3r, controlled by an ECU or just a boost sensor, WI will address the problem much faster.

OP, sorry for thread drift.
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Old 03-19-2010, 01:59 AM   #20
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A large part of the reason I dislike specifically the powercard so much is the absolute and total denial of ANYTHING better available by a certain 9th degree Yo-Yo Master.

I do hate all bandaids the same after finally getting my hands on some real engine controls.
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