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I was thinking of buying a fast forward mp62 kit. i noticed a lot of hate towards the mp62 and ffs kit specifically. What are the main reasons behind this besides the whole turbo vs s/c debate? Im looking to get at the most 220ish hp, 200tq, and i can get e85 easily, have 5k to spend total. I would go turbo if there was an easy to install kit, but i really do not want to do any drilling/cutting to the car, yet alone tuning, and i would rather do the install myself. flyin miata is 3.5-4 hours from me but getting in touch with them at the moment seems to be difficult, not sure if they are closed or just not taking calls. but it seems the turbo has quite a bit more complexity as far as installation and there is no plug and play kit right? am i going to be super disappointed with the ffs kit for canyon carving with those expectations?
Saying you don't want to have to tune the car is a "full stop" on either side. Both will require tuning. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is lying to get your money and you should be very leery of them. Anything that "doesn't require tuning" will be code for "can't be tuned and will make you hate your car."
Next point, the Roots supercharger in the M45 or MP62 variant was designed about 100 years ago and has undergone no significant changes in design since most homes did not have electricity in this country. It makes a good pump in low speed operation such as industrial applications where the huge inefficiencies are mitigated. If you are compressing natural gas for a pipeline and aren't concerned with heat generated or energy consumed to turn the unit it is fine. A Roots blower will consume a huge amount of energy for the amount of work performed at higher pressure ratios. And it will heat up the air due to its design inefficiencies, changing much of the work into waste heat and yielding a product that is hotter than optimal for combustion.
It sucks a lot of horsepower to run a Roots blower. And it is always running, hurting your fuel economy at idle, cruise, and full power. It also significantly adds to the rotating mass of your engine components much like running a larger, heavier flywheel would.
A turbo is vastly superior in efficiency. Its tiny mass just free wheels much of the time. It only gathers power when it is needed, and it gets it from waste energy you would be throwing away anyway. It does not worry about belt alignments and slipping. It is not concerned with gathering all of its power from a tiny fragile key from a known weak spot in our family of engines. It isn't trying to turn a series of gears in an oil bath, or rotors that expand and contract at different rates from the case.
I don't know your history but I do know that many who choose the supercharger do so because they don't understand turbochargers and what the charts and numbers mean. While interesting, it is not necessary for you to know those things when others have done the heavy lifting already and assembled good combinations that are ready to install. In your case I would not look any further than the MK Turbo kits. They are well sorted, well supported, and are lovingly manufactured by one of our very own members. They will make well over 300 horsepower if pushed but could just as easily give you 200 or 220 for decades if you desire. You will make more power with less heat and significantly better fuel economy, and have the ability to increase output as your needs and desires change and grow.
And then there is the fact that the fellows at "For ****'s Sake" don't have a reputation for being particularly good at what they do. Some of the things I've seen makes me wonder if they have a clue what they're doing.
So that's a portion of my two cents. You didn't pay much for it so take it for what you will. I do wish you the best in whatever you choose to do.
From the sound of things, you are looking for something you can install and just works. I believe there are only 3 options that satisfy that need: FFS, FM carb, and TDR rotrex. If carb is needed/wanted then that drops to 2 options, FFS and FM. For me, if the target is 200lbft the obvious choice would be the SC. They have a much wider power band than a turbo, especially at altitude (4 hr from palisade). The issue is that everybody says they want 200lbft and then once they get it they want more. The limitations of the SC really come into play there. BTW... 200lbft at the wheels is 200lbft regardless of the power adder.
Now FFS has a good rep with their customers. People seem to be really happy with them. I for one am not a fan of e-cool, but that is just me. FM is definitely top notch, remember that we have a very challenging environment right now and businesses the size FM can be hit really hard.
As far as the MP62 vs TVS, the TVS is the choice hands down when going new. The MP62 is a fantastic compressor (see sig), but the TVS is better.
Thank you for the quick and straight to the point answers! I decided to go with the ffs tvs900 kit with e cool, mostly because of the installation being a bit more simple, and because i already have a racing beat header. Honestly if i get bored of the s/c i have no problem paying flying miata later down the road to install a turbo. Its a 2001 sport s and for my lazy driving style and the lower revving vvt motor i think it might be a better match with a s/c for me. I can take pictures and post updates on the build if anyone is interested. I noticed the e-cool now has 2 injectors so im prepared for terrible gas mileage, i just hope i can get at least 150 miles out of a tank lol. Will the tvs900 get any better gas mileage than the mp62 because of better efficiency? I never factored in the altitude, I live and drive at 9,000+ feet, I go to Denver "5,000ft" on occasion. I figured the s/c might do a little better at altitude just because its driven by a belt and not air pressure but idk. Also should i bother with 91 octane or just go straight to e85?
I think your best source of information WRT the FFS is probably going to be Tom at FFS. Miata.net tends to have more discussion on the FFS as well.
9000ft is a lot different than 5000ft. 200lbft at the wheels (uncorrected) at 9000ft will probably take everything you can get out of the FFS. It may not be able to get there.
It will still significantly increase the power you do have.
Edit: You will need to upgrade the cooling system. You will be throwing 2-3x the power at it, and it is ~70% as efficient at your altitude.
Current owner of a FFS MP62 system chiming in -- if the goal anything BUT eating the lunch of some plebeians with a sick SSM autocross build, I really don't see any reason to go with a FFS kit, TVS or MP62 (not trashing SCs in general, love my car, and the TVS in generally is considered a cool piece of kit, but stay away from FFS). The engineering is frankly rather lazy. From the way Tom advertises E-COOL, you'd think he somehow invented a way to make gasoline evaporate. It's a silly system that's the worst of both worlds compared to Meth injection or just using a proper ******* water-to-air charge cooler like 99.999% of OEM applications with a cold-side blower. I'm fairly certain my rings are blown (gotta love that 20% leakdown) because of tip-in lean out, and anisotropic e-cool performance allowing leaner air into certain cylinders @ certain flow rates.
And don't even get me started on this BS about the "Power Cards." I really wish the name sounded stupider, so it would accurately reflect how much of a band-aid solution it is. In 2003? Sure, it's a means to an ends. Today? there is just no excuse other than emissions regs. You know what I use a power card for? my simple-as-sin dirtbike, and even then it has its pitfalls. All this talk about "the advantage of OEM Pro Perfect Mazda Engine Tuning with just more fuel on the top end" is BS. I cannot count the number of times one of the stupid, unsecurable vac-reference lines to the power cards came off and the car randomly died, or just the extra parasitic drag of the SC essentially forcing you to crack the throttle a bit to keep the engine from stalling @ idle in hot temps with the AC on. Beyond that there is 0 protection or adjustment of parameters if intake air temps spike, coolant temp goes too high, knock is detected, etc.
Also, if you're driving style is lazy and lower revving, that is EVERY reason to go turbo over supercharger. All of your power comes from wringing the absolute **** out of a SC, if you want that nice torque-y, 3000-5000 RPM pull, you want a fast spooling turbo.
My FFS kit came with the car, and the blower had been recently rebuilt. It's different, kinda funky, I'm 1000 hours of driver-mod-seat-time away from being fast, and it was already there and working. But you better believe I have an MS3-pro engine management computer and (hopefully soon) meth injection ready to replace the crap that came with it. And even that, with 2.75 engineering degrees behind me, is kind of a pain in the *** given the way the kit was designed.
Happy to answer any question you might have, but I would really really encourage you to do some more reading. No modification like this, FFS or FM Turbo, is going to leave your car with no holes, clearance dents, cuts, or modifications. There will be things that CANNOT be undone when you go this deep into the power mods. I'm fine with that, but you should be too. The FFS is ABSOLUTELY not just plug-and-play, and at your altitude, you'll have to dyno tune the power cards to an extent anyway (they are MAP referenced).
Last edited by Spaceman Spiff; 07-24-2020 at 11:43 AM.
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Also, if you're driving style is lazy and lower revving, that is EVERY reason to go turbo over supercharger. All of your power comes from wringing the absolute **** out of a SC, if you want that nice torque-y, 3000-5000 RPM pull, you want a fast spooling turbo...
Me thinks you're thinking about a centrifugal vs the roots that OP is talking about.
Kind of surprised you wouldn't do more research before pulling the trigger on a piece of **** like For ****'s Sake. I didn't realize there were using 1996 era Power Cards and 1983 era additional injectors still. I did know that the drivability was crap and I did know that it was costing people engines because they complain about it here. I tried to alert the original poster about this. E-Cool has been a joke around here for long enough I didn't know they were still using that. I also remember people cross posting stupid things that the owner of FFS had said which intimated just how little he understands about engineering, forced induction, or anything he's putting together.
And you neglected to mention that you were at 9000 feet. Supercharger is a big mistake for that also. It turns at a set rate per engine revolution whereas a turbo will spin more quickly in the presence of the lower resistance of the thinner air on the compressor side and will compensate for altitude more readily. If you've already placed the order and are unable to cancel it you should budget for a megasquirt engine management system and throwing away the garbage he sends you with the kit. Or budget for an additional engine to replace the one his kit will destroy.
Me thinks you're thinking about a centrifugal vs the roots that OP is talking about.
I don't think so unless I'm missing something? Both the MP62 and the TVS900 flow a fixed volume per revolution (62 and
55 ci respectively). Flow rate = (engine rpm)*(pulley ratio)*(SC rotor volume). I don't think there's a scenario where BMEP will be higher with an appropriately sized SC than a fast spooling turbo Below 4-5000 rpm, but I've been wrong before.
Huh, maybe I am. I'm just going back to all the dyno plots I've seen previously. Roots SC's seem to offset the torque curve up across the entire RPM band while looking similar to the stock torque curve (relatively flat) if not choking more on the top end. Centrifugal SC's offsets the torque curve upward while having a more positive slope with less choking on the top end compared to a roots blower, which is the type I thought you meant since it's usually described that way as far as power delivery. And turbos...the world is your oyster depending on sizing and tuning, etc.
Well damn you guys talked me into a turbo now lmao... as far as turbos, would a twin scroll work any better than the garrets, or is there an upgrade from the garrets that come with fm's kit? My goal now is to get very quick spooling and to make boost very early as well as make as much power that a stock vvt 1.8 will handle safely. What are the realistic hp and tq numbers for this goal? and will i be able to plug and play with a base tune or would i need to take it to flyin miata to get it tuned for it to run at all? And would i need anything other than the kit like a radiator or clutch? , ive got the early model 6 speed and torson diff. and lastly, would there be any benefit to using a mandrel bent manifold as opposed to a cast like flyin miata's? Thanks again for the help guys, saves me a lot of money and headache from trial and error.
FM as I understand it only sells a CARB legal package, unless you buy the DIY kit and roll your own engine management, e.g. MS. You will need a clutch. Your limiting factor will be the rods in your engine. If you have a tuner lined up you can get it running with the wastegate wired open, and no boost.
In terms of upgrade turbos, if you are set on FM, the 2560R will make more torque than what your rods will survive, so unless you plan on a built engine, there is no point. Your 6 speed will live at stock block power levels.
There are a lot of options for you. Spend some time reading stuff here and you can work out what your goals are for the parts you have and what you are prepared to upgrade, and what suits, and how much you are prepared to piece together for yourself vs a kit. For a built engine you may decide a kraken manifold and exhaust and an EFR 6258 is a good option for you. Or with a stock engine, the MKTurbo setup might be the way to go.
Take whatever you see on the forum in terms of spool rpm for a given turbo and divide it by ~0.7, that is about what you will get at 9000 ft. At 5000ft a 6258 spools around 4250-4500, a 6758 may not hit full until 5k rpm. You lose another 15% at 9000ft. Pretty much any Denver area dyno plot you see will have upwards of 20% correction. That means your 200lbft is actually 160, and the car will drive like 160.
With a stock redline, you end up with a pretty small powerband.
The 2554 will probably be your best spool option, but it is also unlikely to hit your power goals.
Altitude is VERY impactful to performance, turbos suffer as badly as SCs, just in different ways. There are very few vocal and knowledgeable enthusiasts on this forum who have any experience with altitude.
Ok so after googling for a while it seems the 2554 or 2560 flyin miata custom kit with a ms3 pro is the best option for me. now deciding on the turbo, what is the max hp/tq for the 2554 on a stock vvt motor at sea level? from what ive gathered it sounds like around 230-240hp maybe at full boost? It seems the 2560 takes another 500-1000rpm to spool than the 2554 correct? And Is there another pnp ecu that is better than the ms3 pro, and will I be able to control vvt with ms3 or will i need a closed loop vvtbox? lastly, what are the differences to running a recirculated bypass vs a bov other than the cool noise? by my understanding the recirculated bypass will spool quicker?
If you are starting brand new today, I don't think the FM kit is good value for money anymore. The 2560 and 2554 are antiquated technology. Not that they are bad at what they do but paying $900 for a turbo that old does seem a bit silly.
The biggest thing that will help increase spool speed would be exhaust diameter. 3 inches seems to be the sweet spot with fitment and spool. I would suggest you check out Kraken for his cast turbo manifolds, full 3 inch exhaust specced the way you want included the miataturbo.net approved magnaflow muffler. If I were buying things brand new, at the elevation you are at, I would think maybe to check out the EFR 6258 turbo. It has more than enough power potential to bend stock rods and spool characteristics are about as good as a 2554 but with enough potential for peak power larger than the 2560. Not that I think you need the potential for peak power but at that altitude power takes a nose dive for the same referenced turbo pressure.
Recirculating can help increase spool a little bit but I think it is negligible. It is usually used for cars that run a MAF as opposed to MAP for calculating air intake. The re circulation places the air before the MAF so that the sensor knows how much air is going in.
You should also looking into an electronic boost controller to control the boost that you create.
MS3PNP Pro is a good budget oriented option. There are better ecus than the MS3 but they also cost more for similar features. I know HALTECH makes one for the miata and I hear very favorable things about them. I would not suggest going with anything less than a MS3PNP Pro however.
I would disregard the me221 and the Speeduino. MS3pnppro from Diyautotune does have a built in barometric pressure sensor independent from the MAP sensor to control fuel demands due to altitude changes. I know i've used it but I am not terribly great at tuning it.
MS3 can control vvt just fine. I presently have it controlling my vvt engine in my 92 chassis.
I would suggest you consult the person that you intend to tune your car and see what they suggest as far as running for a computer. It does you no good to buy a ms3 if they refuse to tune it unless you plan to tune it.
Ok it sounds like an efr is the definitive way to go, especially if the cost is similar. Flyin miata is back ordered for their custom kits anyhow. How does trackspeed compare to the kraken kits? and is there and easy way to get and inter cooler setup for the efr setups or is it better to custom make one?
I found a local engine builder that will work with me with the ms3pro so i will certainly go that route for ecu.
Is it worth the money to get the Turbosmart e-Boost2? or do all electronic boost controllers basically do the same thing?
Thanks for the detailed answers!
Ok it sounds like an efr is the definitive way to go, especially if the cost is similar. Flyin miata is back ordered for their custom kits anyhow. How does trackspeed compare to the kraken kits? and is there and easy way to get and inter cooler setup for the efr setups or is it better to custom make one?
I found a local engine builder that will work with me with the ms3pro so i will certainly go that route for ecu.
Is it worth the money to get the Turbosmart e-Boost2? or do all electronic boost controllers basically do the same thing?
Thanks for the detailed answers!
Trackspeed no longer sells their manifolds and lately their manifolds haven't been the greatest of quality.
For EBC, you buy a generic 3 port EBC and connect it to your megasquirt and tune it through the megasquirt.
The mkturbo looks like the only option atm for a complete kit. I didn't consider it too much because I read of some quality control issues someone was having on this site, but that was a year or so ago and that guy seemed kinda inexperienced. How is the quality compared to flyin miata? Are those mk turbos near as good as a bw efr or garret? I wish someone made a manifold/downpipe for a td04, that turbo seems to have the perfect spool/low torque im after and i can find those turbos in denver for dirt cheap. I shot mkturbo an email, if he gets back to me within a few days i might go that route for convenience and upgrade the turbo later, as long as you guys think his kits are good and reliable. I cant seem to find an intercooler kit or intake for the kraken efr setup anywhere. I suppose buying an intercooler and cutting the piping wouldnt be to hard, but if i can avoid the hassle i will.
Take that pile of money currently burning a hole in your pocket and stuff it under your pillow for a few weeks while you do some research on this forum.
After less than 24 hours and 2 people sharing their opinion in this thread you were ready to throw your money at something. I've literally put more effort into buying socks.
07-23-2020, 04:25 AM
Fast foward mp62 kit?
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