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Old 11-17-2008, 12:23 AM   #1
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Default Help - Running way lean

First post...making it a big one

Looking to get some tech help. Little hard to troubleshoot without getting logs of fuel pressures, injector duty cycles, rpm, boost, and throttle position. I'm deciding on either getting a Megasquirt to tune and get some logs or just adding an Innovate SSI-4 to help my logs.

Here's the issues:

- Sometimes I'm stuck lean while cruising and then bogs when you try to accelerate.
- Can't setup afpr to correct psi with vacuum hose removed. I can only get ~56 psi as my lowest.

I'm thinking its one of these:
- tps
- s/c bypass valve
- cartech fpr (leaning towards this)
- factory fpr
- afm
- intake air leak (doubtful - triple checked and replaced all rubber couplings with silicone and constant torque clamps)


All these spikes are from closing the throttle.

Looking for ideas, getting my feeler gauges and multimeter from work tomorrow to start doing testing.

Car is a 90 w/ a 1.6L w/ JRSC, Cartech fpr, brp idler, dual feed rail, LC-1 wideband.

A shot of the car for whorring.

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Last edited by steeb; 11-19-2008 at 04:50 PM. Reason: edited for misreading my mixtures and fixed title
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Old 11-17-2008, 12:52 AM   #2
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Sell bandaids, buy MS. Sell JRSC, build DIY turbo setup. Will run better and make more torque/hp everywhere. Welcome to the forum.
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Old 11-17-2008, 01:37 AM   #3
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hmmmmmm...not too helpful.

The cars only band-aid right now is a rrfpr, it would be the same band-aid I would need to go turbo.
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Old 11-17-2008, 12:18 PM   #4
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Steeb,

Have you tried to adjust your fpr? When I was on a similar set up as yours I'd have problems with lean tip in. When I adjusted the fpr for higer fuel pressure the tip in problem lightned but insted I got problems similar to yours, even though I was rich all way...

The MS set up is a major improvement. But be prepared to upgrade your injectors.
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Old 11-17-2008, 12:42 PM   #5
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i don't see where it's running rich...
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Old 11-17-2008, 01:06 PM   #6
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Quote:
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Steeb,

Have you tried to adjust your fpr? When I was on a similar set up as yours I'd have problems with lean tip in. When I adjusted the fpr for higer fuel pressure the tip in problem lightned but insted I got problems similar to yours, even though I was rich all way...

The MS set up is a major improvement. But be prepared to upgrade your injectors.
I've adjusted my fpr many times. I'm going to start back from square one and set my timing back to 6deg and redo the idle air.

My lean tip-in is a minor problem right now and isn't affecting the driveability, nor is the rich spikes when closing the throttle. I'm starting to think the rich spikes are normal. My main issue is the car occasionally runs rich while cruising (17:1), usually when I'm doing a steady 3800 rpm,(4.3 gears, not so highway friendly) and then bog when I accelerate, then give a good belch and then drives normally again.

On the topic of MS, I have an EMB available locally for cheap. Would it be a good alternative to ditch the afpr and just control the duty cycles on the injectors and ignition timing with that?
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Old 11-17-2008, 01:35 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steeb View Post
I've adjusted my fpr many times. I'm going to start back from square one and set my timing back to 6deg and redo the idle air.

My lean tip-in is a minor problem right now and isn't affecting the driveability, nor is the rich spikes when closing the throttle. I'm starting to think the rich spikes are normal. My main issue is the car occasionally runs rich while cruising (17:1), usually when I'm doing a steady 3800 rpm,(4.3 gears, not so highway friendly) and then bog when I accelerate, then give a good belch and then drives normally again.

On the topic of MS, I have an EMB available locally for cheap. Would it be a good alternative to ditch the afpr and just control the duty cycles on the injectors and ignition timing with that?
Stoichiometric mixture for air and gasoline in a combustion event is 14.7ish :1 and is the datum when discussing rich/lean conditions. A ratio of 15:1 would be "lean" of stoich and an AFR of 13:1 would be "rich" of stoich. So 17:1 is NOT rich, but rather dangerously lean.

You might think my first post wasn't much help, but honestly once you get a MS in there and start tuning everything, you'll wish you had done it sooner. I promise. Same with JRSC. If you think you like 40+ extra whp, wait till you see 100+ whp.
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Old 11-17-2008, 01:49 PM   #8
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You might think my first post wasn't much help, but honestly once you get a MS in there and start tuning everything, you'll wish you had done it sooner. I promise. Same with JRSC. If you think you like 40+ extra whp, wait till you see 100+ whp.
Much more helpful post You're right, I am lean.

20:1 spikes when throttle closed - Normal
20:1 Rolling downhill - Normal
17:1 at cruise sometimes - Lean and not good.

I'm not looking for all out hp, I just want to be able to keep up with my 1.8T GTI. That's why I'm thinking going EMB.
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Old 11-17-2008, 02:02 PM   #9
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Well, I can't tell you what's making it go lean. Perhaps you are loosing fuel pressure. That's my only guess. Mount a temporary gauge and for fuel and note if the lean condition is accompanied with a drop in fuel pressure. You 'might' need a "O2 clamp". No idea, but most bandaid setups require them to get rid of lean spots when transitioning into boost. Again, no expert with bandaids. Or an EMB for that matter

But I will say you could put a MS in there and tune away, and pick up some low end torque as well as a few HP up top over your current fuel and spark setup. And the support on the forum for MS is much better than for EMB. And honestly 1-1.5K builds a badass DIY turbo setup for a 1.6. I'd say you could do it for 1.5K including the MS and have 250whp.
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Old 11-17-2008, 02:47 PM   #10
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Of course your running lean rather than rich. I didn't check your log - sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steeb View Post
On the topic of MS, I have an EMB available locally for cheap. Would it be a good alternative to ditch the afpr and just control the duty cycles on the injectors and ignition timing with that?
I don't have any expirience with EMB but getting rid of the frp will do your car great if you build a map based on afr-targets. If you go for the MS wou will find info on almost anything here - just search. I've been here for a while now, getting tons of useful info and help - without having to ask questions
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Old 11-18-2008, 07:17 PM   #11
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How much psi are you running? Do you have some source of timming retard. (Msd, Bipes)

What size injectors are you running?

What are you talking about vac hose unhooked? Are you just refering to base pressure. That has to be hooked up, or it doesn't work.

If you are running 5psi, 6 degress is way to low.

With a msd that pulls 6 degrees with boost, my brother is running 16 degrees with 5 psi. It runs at 10 degrees with boost.

I wouldn't recommend trying this. But his works fine with no knock. We also have 93 Octane, and he adds some octane boost to it.

If you have 5psi and no timming retard. I would run 8 degrees of timming.
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Old 11-18-2008, 08:40 PM   #12
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If you are running 5psi, 6 degress is way to low.

With a msd that pulls 6 degrees with boost, my brother is running 16 degrees with 5 psi. It runs at 10 degrees with boost.

I wouldn't recommend trying this. But his works fine with no knock. We also have 93 Octane, and he adds some octane boost to it.

If you have 5psi and no timming retard. I would run 8 degrees of timming.
Toddcod- I don't remember saying anything about timing...I think you replied to the wrong post. (In reference to the base pressure, I only had it disconnected for setup. I'm running 8deg of timing but running 94 octane)

Anyways...I just finished removing my dual feed rail and have been fighting with a clogged injector for the past 2 hours. I think that may have been my problem. I'm going to drive it tonight and do some logs.
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Old 11-18-2008, 10:33 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steeb View Post
I've adjusted my fpr many times. I'm going to start back from square one and set my timing back to 6deg and redo the idle air.

Would it be a good alternative to ditch the afpr and just control the duty cycles on the injectors and ignition timing with that?
A injector can definately make you frown. I take it you are pushing 5psi as well. My brother runs the same setup. You can get a MSD boost retard used, and bump your base timing to 14, with boost it will retard to 8. It is worth the 75 dollars. I have a car as well with one on it, and a spare in the closet I bought from Hustler.

The car is way more responsive in all area's.

We just bought some pulleys for the SC car. He should be able to push 10-12psi. That is what the guy who sold us the pulleys said anyway. He may just set it up for 10 and install a large IC to bring the pressure back to 9psi. He really doesn't want to program anything.
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Old 11-19-2008, 12:00 AM   #14
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wow, I'm losing my mind. Sorry toddcod I did mention my timing. My mind is everywhere with a house with a sick car and a sick wife.

I think I might pick up this e-manage blue locally. I'll be able to ditch the afpr and from what I can tell I will be able to control the timing too.

I took the car for a 40 min spin and I had the car do the little lean hiccup once. I may not be out of the woods yet. I think I may have a fpr problem since my a/f is never the same at cruise. Sometimes it's 14:1, sometimes it's 13:1. I thought at cruise the ECU tries to keep the car at stoich.
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Old 11-19-2008, 10:12 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by steeb View Post
wow, I'm losing my mind. Sorry toddcod I did mention my timing. My mind is everywhere with a house with a sick car and a sick wife.

I think I might pick up this e-manage blue locally. I'll be able to ditch the afpr and from what I can tell I will be able to control the timing too.

I took the car for a 40 min spin and I had the car do the little lean hiccup once. I may not be out of the woods yet. I think I may have a fpr problem since my a/f is never the same at cruise. Sometimes it's 14:1, sometimes it's 13:1. I thought at cruise the ECU tries to keep the car at stoich.
There are alot of guys here that were, and are still running the emanage. They should be able to help.

If the injector cleaning fixed it, great. If it is running smooth, I probably wouldn't worry about the 13 -14 durring cruise, unless you have bad gas mileage. That S/C gives boost pretty freely. If you don't have a boost gauge (like my brother) you may not be seeing that it is getting boost here and there.

As long as it is running smooth and you have good gas mileage you are safe with that. Rich (13) is better that lean (17).

Keep in mind I'm not a a great or even good tuner, but my car fluctuates from 14-15 in cruise. And that is the GT2560 car with mspnp.

My 6psi car, I don't know what it is doing, but I get good mpg and it runs good.

But I understand wanting management as well. But for a DD on low boost, I like the bandaids. The stock computer controlls normal everything, and for the moment of boost, you just run a little rich. LOL

I've seen the msd box sale on ebay for $30 before. But if you could score a emanage and know what you are doing with it . That sounds sweet.

Just watch what all extra you have to buy with the emanage. That is what nickles and dimes you.
I had bought a EMU, and they kept telling me to buy this and buy that and etc etc. i didn't know what I needed or didn't need. I sold it and bought ms. FWIW I was also computer iliterate before MS, and I'm still learning it.

But I'm sure with someone who knows what they are doing, emanage is just as good.

GOOD LUCK!
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Old 11-19-2008, 02:13 PM   #16
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I'm basically still at square one.

Drove the car to work today and everything was fine until I got on the highway. Cruising at a steady 110 kph with a/f at a decent 13.8:1 then all of a sudden it sticks at 17-18:1 with no changes. Same as before. I hear no audible knock or pinging. Step on the gas a little more and it feels like it wants to go but it feels like Fat Albert is sitting in the trunk. I goose the pedal, car gives one big hiccup (no knock or ping) and then a/f are back to ~14:1, until the next occurence.

Now I'm thinking my wideband is my issue. So I redid all my grounds and will take the car for a spin at lunch. If this doesn't help, I may go back to the stock narrowband for the factory ECU and then weld in another bung for the wideband and use it strictly for tuning.

I'm going to pick up the e-manage tonight. I like the fact I can datalog some vital info with it and it's much cheaper than buying a SSI4 from Innovate. I'm planning to just run with the afpr for now with the e-manage zeroed out, get some logs and learn the program. Then I'll ditch the afpr and start modding duty cycles and timing. First I've got to fix my lean issue.
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Old 11-19-2008, 05:35 PM   #17
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Ugh...test drove the car at lunch. Still happening.

I've got my old narrowband lying around. I'm going to put it in and see what happens If it works I'm just going to replace the o2 sensor, add another bung to the down pipe, and use the wideband only for tuning instead of feeding a signal to the ECU.
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Old 11-20-2008, 06:27 AM   #18
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Steeb,

What about your fuel pump?
Have you tested to calibrate your WB?

Andreas
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Old 11-20-2008, 07:47 AM   #19
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Fuel pump is ok. I tested it earlier and all the readings were in spec.

I have narrowed it down to my o2 or my ecu. I haven't swapped in my narrowband yet but my problem only occurs when the car wants to run in closed loop. The car runs perfect with no o2 signal connected. I'm going to connect the narrowband today and see what happens.
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Old 11-20-2008, 08:27 AM   #20
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Hmmm, tricky. Have you checked the voltage from WB to ECU?

Andreas
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