[NA] Spring Rates? Daily Driver vs Track car - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain discuss the wondrous effects of boost and your miata...

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-04-2011, 01:26 AM   #1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: North of Pittsburgh - PA
Posts: 58
Total Cats: 0
Question [NA] Spring Rates? Daily Driver vs Track car

1990
Stock suspension as of now

First off, I came here because I get absolutely flamed on m.net for evening speaking of suspension upgrades that aren't FM.

Okay i've done some quick research, and what i've read,

stock miata's spring rates are: 164/96
Mine is stock, 21 years old.. so its probably slacking abit no?

So, being a highschool student working at McDonald's, i'd like to stiffen my suspension a tad, reduce roll, and basically make a fun daily-driver [not a track car]. I plan on autoX maybe 3 or 4 times max this summer. this needs to be a reliable daily first.

A few people suggestion Raceland's to me. I did some more googling and came upon "riceland's" and some pretty strong hate towards them, though most people calling them crap seems to be the ones who hadn't owned them, or who wanted them for track car.

Raceland's are 450/350 spring rate. compared to 164/96 (or lower, like i said, 21 year old suspension) would this not be significantly stiffer? It'd offer me ability to reduce some wheel gap, though I won't be slamming it.

Then my 240 friends asked me springrate of coilovers i were considering and they laughed in my face. my friend put coils on his car last weekend, 6000/5000.. now 240's are heavier sure, but THAT much heavier in which the springrate would be that extreme?

1. Raceland, 450/350 springrate is that solid for a daily?
2. What are "typical rates" of daily's and track cars, to give me an idea of the ranges..
3. Has anyone here owned racelands? suggestions/advice? The price popped out at me, for a daily it seemed like common sense..

thanks,
Brendan
Blindsay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 01:34 AM   #2
Senior Member
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 989
Total Cats: 23
Default

Here you go:
http://www.hraefn.net/projects/spring_rates.php

You and your friends need to have a discussion about units of measurement. One kg of fries is 2.2 lbs of fries. They are talking about kg/m spring rates, you're talking about lb/in springrates.

Some guys here were actually pleasantly surprised with how the racelands were for street use. I think 18 psi thought they were pleasant, and I know savington was testing them out.
wittyworks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 01:35 AM   #3
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
triple88a's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 9,131
Total Cats: 598
Default

I'm running FM Vmaxx rated at 391 lb/in in the front and 258 lb/in in the rear with their 112lb/in helper springs. It feels more confy than the stockers.. I believe its because of the helpers as they are not fully compressed at rest so they pick up small bumps.

I believe 6k spring rate is like 335lb/in
triple88a is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 01:42 AM   #4
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
hustler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,114
Total Cats: 351
Default



I think FM springs and Bilstein HD's might be a good combo. I have just about every set-up but that combo. This way you get a monotube shock that lasts a long time and will probably work well with the FM spring rate.
hustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 01:42 AM   #5
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 117
Total Cats: 1
Default

Do not blow your money on racelands. I had a set of racelands that I bought for the lulz. They were fine for open-track events and street driving where fast transitions aren't a priority. They pretty much suck at autocross, and the DIY coilovers that I made are significantly better and cost almost the same.

Used NB Bilsteins (you'll want a set that comes with the upper mounts) - $200
Ebay coilovers (you may or may not use the springs, depending on rates) - $60
350 lbs/in 7" springs (new from a circle track shop) $100
Lathe time (to re-locate snap rings for coilover sleeves to sit on) $60 at a local machine shop.

So that's about $420, and you get custom coilovers with racecar springrates and rebuildable motorsports dampers.

Name:  bilsteins9.jpg
Views: 887
Size:  81.4 KB

Oh, and your 240 friends? Ignore them when it comes to suspension stuff like this. You can't directly compare the springrates for their strut / multilink suspension to our double wishbones. The geometry makes it work differently. Also, I'm assuming they're using metric measurements and 6000/5000 translate to 335 lbs/in and 280 lbs/in respectively.

Hope that helps. It wasn't long ago i was a high school kid, and I wish I had a Miata and access to this kind of stuff back then.
mcarp22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 01:50 AM   #6
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: North of Pittsburgh - PA
Posts: 58
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wittyworks View Post
Here you go:
http://www.hraefn.net/projects/spring_rates.php

You and your friends need to have a discussion about units of measurement. One kg of fries is 2.2 lbs of fries. They are talking about kg/m spring rates, you're talking about lb/in springrates.

thanks.. sorry about that i feel like a real assclown now

thank you for that though.

400/350 lbs/INCH (please note i stated 450 in first post, i am corrected.. it is 400 for front, not 450)
Blindsay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 01:51 AM   #7
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 220
Total Cats: 1
Default

I'm running 700 lbs/in front and 450 lbs/in rear, and a Racing Beat front "race" bar (hollow, 3/16" wall). This is VERY comfortable if you use shocks that can control these spring rates. I'm using double adjustable aluminum monotube Koni 2812 shocks, but today there are a lot of other less expensive alternatives.

FWIW, I just completed a 2900 mile trip in this car and was never upset with the ride, including one stint where I drove for 18 hours.
modernbeat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 01:59 AM   #8
Elite Member
iTrader: (24)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cypress, TX
Posts: 3,778
Total Cats: 35
Default

Subscribed. I'm in the same boat.
Bryce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 02:15 AM   #9
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: North of Pittsburgh - PA
Posts: 58
Total Cats: 0
Default

@modernbeat, maybe I don't understand proportions.. but if my car has 164lbs/inch springrate in front, and im upgrading to 400.. would it not significantly stiffen up? I don't mind my ride all that much now, but stiffer won't hurt, and i'd like to get a little lower..

remember this is my fun daily, not my track car. any tracking with this car is for pure ****'s and giggles between my friends and I at the local track on some bored weekend
Blindsay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 03:28 AM   #10
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 220
Total Cats: 1
Default

Mine is a fun daily and roadtrip car. The suspension is what makes it fun. I do the occasional track day or autocross with it, but it's really a fun street car with AC and a stereo.

And the ride is great and not jarring at all. But the ride is controlled by the shocks. You can have a horrible ride with soft spring rates if the shock valving sucks.
modernbeat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 02:26 AM   #11
Newb
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 38
Total Cats: -11
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindsay View Post
@modernbeat, maybe I don't understand proportions.. but if my car has 164lbs/inch springrate in front, and im upgrading to 400.. would it not significantly stiffen up? I don't mind my ride all that much now, but stiffer won't hurt, and i'd like to get a little lower..

remember this is my fun daily, not my track car. any tracking with this car is for pure ****'s and giggles between my friends and I at the local track on some bored weekend
I think one thing you may not realize is that from what I've come to understand (on miata.net and clubroadster.net, among other places) because the spring rates for the stock Miata are so soft, you're often riding on the bump stops; in effect, giving you a *very* hard suspension.
alangbaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 09:58 AM   #12
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,892
Total Cats: 1,792
Default

You don't need more than 6k/4k on a DD.

Quote:
but if my car has 164lbs/inch springrate in front, and im upgrading to 400.. would it not significantly stiffen up?
yes. You'll need 236 more lbs of force (total of 400) to compress the suspension an inch. 40% stiffer, if you will.


If you have good dampers, they can make these impacts feel firm, but not harsh.

I'm running a 400lb. front spring and wouldn't mind going softer...and that's with dampers that cost significantly more than racelands.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 10:07 AM   #13
Elite Member
iTrader: (41)
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Seabrook, TX
Posts: 2,409
Total Cats: 19
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
You'll need 236 more lbs of force (total of 400) to compress the suspension an inch. 40% stiffer, if you will.
Your math might be a little bit off there haus.

Going with stiffer springs and shocks valved appropriately gives you a fun and comfortable ride. Going with a higher spring rate and shocks that aren't valved for your rate range can make you hate the car.
rharris19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 10:25 AM   #14
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,892
Total Cats: 1,792
Default

not really.

It takes 164 lbs of force to compress the factory spring 1". It takes an additional 236 lbs of force to compress a 400 lb spring the same amount.

as a whole: 164/400 = .41
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 10:37 AM   #15
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
NA6C-Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Birmingham Alabama
Posts: 8,038
Total Cats: 43
Default

Just take the easy route and run a set of Bilstein's and FM springs. I hate mine, but only because the R-package Bilstein valving sucks on these springs. I actually think they would be smoother with stiffer springs. Maybe the HD's would be different/better?
NA6C-Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 10:38 AM   #16
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: North of Pittsburgh - PA
Posts: 58
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by alangbaker View Post
I think one thing you may not realize is that from what I've come to understand (on miata.net and clubroadster.net, among other places) because the spring rates for the stock Miata are so soft, you're often riding on the bump stops; in effect, giving you a *very* hard suspension.
Ah I see, but, riding on the bump stops is not good for your coilovers, or springs, correct? How would I go about preventing this?
Blindsay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 10:39 AM   #17
Crumple Zone Tester
iTrader: (7)
 
mgeoffriau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Jackson, MS
Posts: 7,656
Total Cats: 447
Default

I'm not understanding your math either. Let's change the values to an original 100 lb/in spring and going to a 150 lb/in spring.

Your formula:

100 / 150 = 0.66r

Would we say that a 150 lb/in spring is 66% stiffer than a 100 lb/in spring?

Shouldn't it be 50% stiffer? 150 lb/in - 100 lb/in = 50 lb/in

50 lb/in / 100 lb/in = 0.50
mgeoffriau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 10:55 AM   #18
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,892
Total Cats: 1,792
Default

I dunno and/or do not care anymore. maybe it's 140% stiffer, since double the stock spring rate wouldn't even equal the 400lbs one.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 10:58 AM   #19
Crumple Zone Tester
iTrader: (7)
 
mgeoffriau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Jackson, MS
Posts: 7,656
Total Cats: 447
Default

Well, 140% as stiff as the original spring rate, or 40% more stiff than the original spring rate. Same thing.
mgeoffriau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 11:00 AM   #20
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,892
Total Cats: 1,792
Default

i think the idea got across. its semantics at this point.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
elesjuan's mediocre 95 Miata adventure (google fiber edition) elesjuan Build Threads 8 02-16-2016 09:36 PM
ms2e No Rpm Signal Dobzeh ECUs and Tuning 5 09-17-2015 03:56 PM
1995 Miata parts, coilover springs, PatCleary Miata parts for sale/trade 9 09-11-2015 08:53 PM
Project DDoS: '99 "Budget" boost build ProjectDDoS Build Threads 1 09-09-2015 02:52 PM
Overheating Turbo'd 96M Bruce MacKay General Miata Chat 8 09-05-2015 08:05 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:48 PM.