Another brake pad thread.. daily vs track
 

So I have gone through my latest set of EBC yellowstuff pads in about 4 hours of track driving and maybe 1000 miles on the street, so it seems that it may be time for me to upgrade to some real pads for the track and something else for street duty. I have a soft place in my heart for Carbotech, because they're local and we ran them on our chump/lemons cars and they were fantastic. They're quite expensive, though. What is everyone running these days for HPDE type work? 150whp, ~2450lbs with driver. I called the G-loc guys and they recommended the R10 in front and R8 in rear (formerly XP10 and XP8 I assume). How do these compare to DTC-60's? Anything else out there? Looking mainly for longevity and modulation, I can deal with dust and noise.

As for street pads... there's something to be said for pad materials that are compatible (i.e. G-Loc R10/R8 for track, GS-1 for street), so as to keep running the same rotors, but I don't think I need street pads that are so expensive. In fact I think it would probably be cheaper in the long run to get a second set of NAPA rotors and run some autozone duralast gold (lifetime warranty) pads. I never had any issues with fade on the street with the oe-replacement pads that came on the car. Is there anyone else out there doing this?

I run XP 10/12 s, sweep piles of dust off my stuff every day and wake the dead with the screeching. Then I just drive my wagon.

I used to run HP+ when still driving my Miata on the street and track. Only one track in our area caused problems, Eagles Canyon it's really hard on brakes.
If you want to run the same pad for street and track, you might check DTC-30s. I run them in the back now, DTC-60's up front.
Looking at the charts on the Hawk web site, the DTC-30s have a very wide temp range.

I run hawk dtc-60s because they don't care about transfer layer. On the street I run rockauto $6 cardboard pads.

My DTC-30 rears are still quite noisy, don't care for them in Street use.

How's the modulation on these? I autocrossed a set of HP+ pads and they felt like an on/off switch (locked up almost instantly).
Run DTC-60 for front and rear? Same rotors for street and track?

Thanks!

I'm sure Aidan will chime in, but I'll share too since I'm running the same setup as he is.

I LOVE the DTC-60s. Such a fantastic track pad. Modulation for days.

I'm sure Aidan will chime in, but I'll share too since I'm running the same setup as he is.

I LOVE the DTC-60s. Such a fantastic track pad. Modulation for days. I haven't tried any other race pads, but I'm super happy with these.

Another vote for street use of carbotechs. I think I use XP10 front, XP8 rear, but I'm not 100% sure. Have to check my notes.

I've tried various other brands over the years, carbotechs last long and they don't eat rotors. Oh and they grip hard.

Well I'm in for a set of DTC-60's and will pick up a set of whatever ceramics I can find at the local parts store. More friends than I realized run them and the only bad thing I've heard is that they chew up rotors.
With my miata I've replaced the rotors every time I've replaced the pads anyway...

Thread revival instead of starting a new thread:

Everything I have read says the DTC-60's dust a lot and can corrode the wheels, BUT they dont require a transfer layer.

Most of the carbotechs require dedicated rotors for each pad I believe, they dust, but its not corrosive? Right?

Most people here dont think a Hawk HP+ or a Stoptech Sport are sufficient for light HPDE duty, but these two COULD work on the street or do some lapping?

Is there a basic track pad that won't corrode wheels and you can swap in (read: doesnt care about transfer layer) or is there a street pad thats acceptable for light lapping? I can swap pads the night before an event, but I really dont like the idea of corrosive dust eating brand new wheels and since I'm new to lapping, I dont need the most expensive unicorn pad material.

Awesome track pad, still great on the street, requires no bedding, no corrosive dusting? PFC 01 or 11

/search

https://www.miataturbo.net/race-prep...vs-xp10-71147/

DTC60 are popular, but the dust is a biatch to clean off wheels and is corrosive. They also have a higher metal loading so they wear rotors more than Carbotech/G-Loc. They give a slightly firmer pedal due to the increased stiffness of the pad material (because more metal).

I'm running G-Loc XP10 front / XP8 rear with NB2 sport brakes as I progress through NASA HPDE. Combine them with RBF600 and I've never had a braking issue. I blocked off my front brake ducts after switching to the XP10, because they were running too cool on track with the wimpy non-turbo BP4W. I was at Mid-Ohio, which is known to be tough on brakes, last weekend running 205mm RE71R's and they were phenomenal. I may try XP8's in the front whenever these pads run out, but I expect to easily get through the entire 2017 season on them given the current wear rate. The only real street use it sees is driving to events, so noise isn't a big issue, but they are freaking loud and will leave your wheels looking all nasty after a couple stops. The dust cleans off as easy as any street pad so there are no issues as long as you don't let it sit on there for weeks. They have sufficient brake torque when cold that I can lockup the front on the highway, so they're not unsafe for street use.

Hawk HP+ are fine on the street, they do not make noise and bite reasonably on the first touch. The dust does not corrode.
Whether they are good enough on the track depends on the power you have, the tires you have and the track you run. They are a step up from OEM pads and can tolerate more heat. I would say: just try them out and if you experience fading then upgrade your pads.
I ran my Civic with HPS pads on street tires and 20 minute track sessions with no problem at all. If you have semi slicks, a turbo and a track which is heavy on the brakes it becomes a different story.

I should note I am a stock 2003 with DIY billies, going to be running 15x9's with the new Federal 595RS-RR tires. Not exactly the most upgraded car. I will look at the PFC's and Hawks again. Sixshooter, my searching skills do seem to suck, I dont see anyone selling PFC's for sport brakes?

I've had my 99 (before turbo) at Sebring once, and Homestead twice, using hawk HP+ front and rear (with RE11 205's for tires). The pads seemed to do fine. Those were my first HPDE events so I was pretty new to that experience, but as the day progressed, I became more confident with the car. It was about then where I kinda wanted a little more as far as braking goes. I have not taken the car on track since I've had the turbo on, so I can't comment there. I'm almost positive they will not suffice tho, based on previous experience I had when I was harder on the brakes pre-turbo.

For the street and autocross tho, they perform fantastic. They have quite a bit more bite than stock (comparing with my brother's stock 2000 he had). I've had the same pads on for several years now and they still have good life left. They can be noisy at times (noisy as hell some days, not so much on others, not sure why. it is also my daily), and they do get the wheels dusty fairly quick. But they have not corroded the wheels in-between washes (every couple of weeks+). They clean up with just regular car soap and water.

Sport brakes? Hmm. Yeah, I don't think they have them in PFC.

With stock power, street tires, and sport brakes you can do the HP+. I ran them at Sebring when naturally aspirated on street tires. They do dust more than the PFCs and you will need to upgrade when you increase power or go to Hoosiers but in your case they will work fine. The PFCs would work fine at your power level and on up from there if they made them for the sport setup.

Ahhh, dang sport brakes are limiting my choices (2003's all got these if I remember correctly). Got it. I used the Hawk HP+ before, but never on sticky tires and only on the street. I dont mind some dusting, I just worry about seeing the pictures from people who can't clean them off in time and start wrecking their wheels from the DTC-60s.

Has anyone used the Stoptech Sports? They claim to have a higher temp rating similar to the HP+ pads for light lapping duty, again, not sure if they fit sport brakes.

Mech5700, that is the same thoughts I have on the HP+, seemed to do well as a street/autocross pad, but wasn't sure about using as a dual duty lapping pad.

I just went through the same experimentation with the front Sport calipers. I'm walking away from the Yellowstuff.

My dedicated track pads are a custom set of Raybestos ST43s made for me by the nice folks at Porterfield Brakes. They cost me $249, but I think they will last a very long time. I have nine days on them at VIR and they only wore down about 1mm. I use them when I put on the NT01s. I drive my car to the track on RE-71As with the StopTechs (and use them in the wet). I don't need to swap rotors. Both those pads are easy on rotors and seem to get along fine on the same discs. I've done a couple of dry weather track days on Shenandoah with the StopTechs/RE-71As and thought they were fine. I just didn't push real hard. I have XP8s out back and a Wilwood proportioning valve. When I swap in the ST43s, I go two-and-a-quarter turns to rear bias. I think it's fantastic. No problems with the XP8s on the highway.

I'm going to give the StopTechs another try for an upcoming, one day event at Dominion Raceway. I may even swap in the ST43s but keep running the RE-71As. That might turn out to be the best solution, but I would like to find a track pad that won't disintegrate during the commute. I just want to show up, unload and drive. I destroyed a set of non-Sport ST43s and a set of Cobalt Friction pads by driving them to and from events. The non-Sport PFC 11s worked well and held up to the highway driving, but I thought they were expensive for how long they lasted. That's why I tried the Yellowstuff. They don't last either and tear up rotors. A set of G-LOCs might be in my future, but I had bad luck with rotor deposits using XP10s up front. Are the G-LOC pads somehow different than the equivalent Carbotechs?

I sent Performance Friction a note asking what it would take to get some front Sport caliper PFC 11s produced. I'll report back.

I had the HP+ onthe '99 and still run them on the '03. Both with 225/45 Rival/S and Bilstein coilovers. They squeak horribly on both cars. Performance and feel are meh- strett and track. Running performance friction (01 compund I believe) on the 99 now and they are a far superior pad- especially on the track, but even on the street. I would never again buy HP+. PF should start making pads for the spots rotors- I ink there would be quite a market.

Guess i should check my Yellowstuffs. Besides tearing up rotors and being noisy, dusty, and horrific at cold stops.... i like 'em well enough.

If there's meat on them, i'll see if i can echo the sentiments after upcoming track day.

Context:

~2200lb NB w/ driver
~140-150whp
Sport brakes w/ 949 lines, EBC Yellows, Wilwood 1" master, Singular 2.5" ducts
15x10 245/40

[QUOTE=concealer404;1408799]Guess i should check my Yellowstuffs. Besides tearing up rotors and being noisy, dusty, and horrific at cold stops.... i like 'em well enough.


That sounds like quite the endorsement for Yellowstuff haha. "They kinda suck all round', but i like them."


The PFC pads seem like a winner, good for the track, usable on the street, non corrosive, no transfer layer needed, however they dont fit sport brakes which I'm kinda stuck with for now. The HP+ pads seem to always be middle of the road, some say its decent, others that its complete garbage. Right now I think the HP+ and maybe stoptechs are the only viable options.

I agree with sixshooter. You can run StopTech or HP+ pads on true 200 treadwire tires and above on stock power. Use an inside shim and good fluid, and they won't fade. I have done it several times. HP+ has more initial bite, if that is what you are after. That comes at a cost of sounding like a school bus had an alien love child with a fog horn after they have been heat cycled a few times.

Now THIS sounds appealing.

HP+ does whistle a bit on some cars. PFCs don't seem to have that issue.

If you think the HP+ whistles, wait until you hear the R8s.

I think it varies with the weight of the car / surface area of the pads / amount of heat put into them. People report the whole gamut of experiences with them.

I ran through 4 or 5 sets of HP+ on my RX-8 about 5 years ago. After one track day, a new set of pads would whistle at track speeds and howl terribly on the street. I could quiet them down a bit by burnishing the pad surfaces and cleaning and re-greasing everything, but they were still embarrassing. People would actually roll down their windows to helpfully tell me I needed a brake job. I found DTC-30s to be better, more linear performers on the track and quieter on the street, so I switched to those, before discovering Carbotech. Hawk's Street/Race pad is supposedly the DTC-30 compound with bevels and shims, so that may be an option. I used one set of them (all I could get and was in a rush) and found them to be extremely similar to DTC-30s.

Having said that, there are plenty of people who run HP+ at my home track, and they report tolerable noise on the street.

I have a set of StopTech Sport pads on my RX-8 right now as my street pads. They did fine for me on a track day with Star Specs. They do not have the initial bite of HP+, and they dust more, but they are quieter, and the dust is not as corrosive.

Non corrosive dust is something I am looking for. Glad to hear the stoptech's were able to handle some lapping, not a lot of reviews of those.

My experience with stoptech:

N/A car, noob driver: great on track.
Turbo car, more experienced driver, PIR (hard on brakes): they literally fell off the backing plate when I removed them.
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Good to hear. I have done ONE HPDE event, and autocross, car is stock except for DIY billies and new sticky summer tires (federal 595RS-RR). Adding power is quite aways out. StopTechs are very tempting due to price. I think a full set front and rears were under $100 (compared to almost $200 for HP+), if they can handle some noob lapping thats the way to go for me. I spent the last 3 years slowly buying safety gear, I want to start spending money on actually driving.

Yep. That's about what I would expect to see.

I have zero experience with those tires, but a quick search indicates they are a "200TW" tire in the same way the RE-71R is a "200TW" tire: closer to 140TW or 120TW in real life. If so, that is a LOT of tire for a newb. We normally recommend someone start tracking on a true 200TW tire or above. You learn a lot more on tires with less grip, that give you a lot of feedback, and that don't cover your mistakes. And, the more or less stock suspensions we see on most newb's cars are much better suited to higher TW tires.

Agree regarding non-stick tires for learning.

Great data point for me. Changes the plan for my next event.

Thanks much,

I suppose I should follow up on this thread since it's been revived -- I have a couple track days on the DTC60s, and have been running HPS on the street. No issues with fade or overheating with the DTC's and the HPS pads work well enough on the street. I wash my car after any track day anyway so the corrosive dust hasn't seemed to be an issue yet. Here's an example lap at Road Atlanta right after I got the DTC60's. I'm pretty hard on the brakes generally (ran up someone's rear bumper this lap, but usually brake hard in the latter half between 1 and 2 marker of turn 10). I'm not sure how they'd handle DOT slicks, but for street tires they're fine. It was 95 degrees in Atlanta when the below video was taken.

Put on some pants. You should consider wearing more fire protective clothing in general. I know it's hot.

As for the driving, I'd say you are slowing too much going into turn one. You should be going fast enough to need to go all the way to the track out strips. It will help you to have more speed to climb that giant hill as well. It also appeared that you departed turn 4 and started to turn right for the esses a little early which makes them a little less straight and can slow you down a touch.

I'm no expert at RA, and T1 and T12 scare the eff out of me sometimes, but it is a monumental track to drive.

Pants: Definitely - I had been switching between pants and shorts (as mentioned, 95 degrees in Atlanta is miserable) but forgot on the last session of the day. Definitely not good and I didn't realize until I got out after the session was over and saw my pants sitting on my pile of stuff in the pits.
Turn 1 - That's about fast as I'm comfortable taking a car I need to drive home! See the first clip in Turn 4 - Yep, probably a little bit of time to be had there, though I'm full throttle through the esses anyway so probably not much.
It's a great track. I'm not fast enough for T12 to scare me yet (my right foot is planted from 10B to 1) but once the turbo is finished it will be much more interesting.

I remember the naturally aspirated 10b to 1 throttle press and hold drill. Once you add a turbo you will need to lift.

I don't have exactly what I wrote in my online info request, but I admitted that I knew PFC 11s for the Sport front calipers were not currently offered. I asked what it would take to get some made. I believe I stated, don't tell me it can't be done, tell me what it would take to get it done. Justin from Performance Friction answered my query the next day by stating "Thanks for reaching out and I hate to report that we don’t have those pads in stock any longer". That was on 25 April. I thanked him for his quick response and again admitted I knew they weren't currently offered. I asked him what level of commitment--how many pieces and how much money--it would take for them to make some. I said I thought they could sell quite a few. I have received no further responses.

Another vote for StopTech SPORT

I ran them on street and track. Took 2 days at Laguna last year without any issues on 15x9 200tw tires (Hankook RS-3), also used them for autocross. They dust more than stock, but that's kind of expected and not too bad really. Were quiet for me on the street and did their job in stock powered car at the track. They do need some higher temps to be most effective, but still usable on the street.

Yet another happy Stoptech Sport user. Had them at stockish power with RE-71r on pocono (two drag strips with some corners between) and a track noob and they held up fine. Did three tracl days on that set and about 6000 street miles and only wore them down by about 1/4. They dust fairly bad, plan on cleaning your wheels weekly, but it comes right off (if it doesn't get mixed with brake fluid because of a caliper seal failure...). Occational squeak here and there on the road, but nothing like the HP+ my friend's run. This is all on 1.6 brakes. I will report back eventually on corrado rotors and a supercharger with them.

I just used up my first set of Raybestos ST43 Sport Brake front pads. I got 16.75 track days out of them, minimum of 2.5 hours average per day although it's probably more. At my last event of 2017 in Nov, I had a dust boot partially unseat which caused a pad to taper and lose some material compared to its partner pad, but there was never any indication anything was wrong from a braking perspective. That thinner, tapered pad chunked at VIR last weekend. I experienced some brake fade--first time with this setup--in the afternoon of the second day and found the chunked pad while checking all four corners. The other three pads still measure ~10mm total thickness including the backing plate, which seems like a lot of material left. Could the reduced thickness have caused the ATE Type 200 brake fluid to overheat? It never pulled to one side during braking, which I would have expected after seeing the chunked pad. I swapped in a new set of ST43s and didn't have any problems in the next three sessions on the VIR Grand West course.

As I mentioned in a previous post, they're easy on rotors and coexist with the Stop Tech Sports on the same rotors for the commute and use in the rain.