Big Brake Differences
 

Hey guys, Trying to read up about the big brake kits available. The two I am comparing right now are the TSE 11.75" and the 949 11"
TSE:
http://trackspeedengineering.com/sto...99d3d0a4e0b062
949:
http://949racing.com/949-miata-big-brake-kit.aspx

few QQs:
is there a difference in the calipers? It seems both use 4-piston dynalite pistons (although the 949 has an option for 6-piston dynapro), but I just want to clarify that one isn't larger than the other.
is there a difference between the rotor hats?

The 949 kit is a kit made by Wilwood. The TSE kit is a kit with brackets they made in house used with VW rotors. Calipers are the same unless you upgrade and I would asume the 949 hats are lighter bc I believe it's a 2 piece design.

Edit: I actually looked at both adds and the TSE kit uses the same rotors/hats so I assume they are the same.

no they are not actually. the TSE 11.75" uses an 8 bolt pattern for the rotors, while the wilwood kit at 949 uses a 6x6.25 bolt pattern for rotors. The pistons are the same though. Thanks guys, all makes more sense now!

Then you have the 11.75 using parts from the Mini Kit with raidal mounted DynaPros (a radial bracket mounted to slightly enlarged axial holes in the spindle...)
https://www.miataturbo.net/showthrea...t=54434&page=5
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/mini/kits-16/ (get the Miata parts in the kit by asking Todd).

Is Todd someone who works at TCE or ...?

edit: I answered my own question - this is Todd https://www.miataturbo.net/members/todd-tce-17656/

Still wrong, we use an 11.75" Wilwood rotor, not an 11" Wilwood rotor. The bracket is also a bespoke unit that is designed for use in the Miata, not a kludged bracket that needs spacers to fit the rotor correctly.

If you can fit them under your wheels, the 11.75s are better. Pads cost the same and last longer, the brake feel is significantly better, and the rotors are SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than a comparable 11" rotor ($31 vs $81).

For hardcore track junkies, the rotor cost is a big deal - no matter what pad you use (CT or Hawk), eventually you'll develop thermal cracks even with a non-drilled/slotted rotor. I inspect the rotors at every pad swap and swap them on either the 2nd or 3rd set of pads. The cost savings on the rotors will pay for a set of pads every time you need to swap them.

The only downside to the 11.75s is the wheel clearance - since they are designed for track junkies, they only fit under 15x9 6ULs with a 5mm spacer, or 15x10 6ULs with no spacer. They will clear most 16s (OEM Sport wheels) and Team Dynamics SM wheels as well.

Sav dont forget to add to your list.. the 11.75 do fit behind 15x9 TRM C3M's with the spacer too. They barely make it without a spacer, but I wouldn't do it.

The radial mount calipers have better radial clearance and use thicker pads that last longer for the same price. The calipers by themselves cost significantly more though

Bob

To add a little more clarity, Boost Joose was right a year ago. TSE's kit was for 11" Corrado rotors, which could be had for cheap ($30 each), although they're a one piece OEM rotor, so very heavy compared to a two piece unit like FM's, Goodwin's, 949's, etc. which all have aluminum hats.

If you can find TSE's kit used from someone it's still a good option, since you'll have cheap rotors, cheap wilwood pad options, and you'll get rid of your pad taper.

You'll also only need to pay $550 to upgrade if you ever decide to do the 11.75" kit, since you'll already have brake lines, calipers, and pads.

There are some draw backs to the VW rotor, I believe a number of brands crack easier than others, and although it's only a .75" difference, the bigger kit is still MUCH better. I just wouldn't suggest discounting the 11".

This.

I had the 11.75" briefly until I realized it wouldn't fit any wheel option I wanted to buy. In retrospect I should have just ponied up the extra $135 for the 6ul, but it would also mean the extra $250 for the two rotor hats. That was almost $400 I didn't have at the time.

However, when I had the kit, I tried it with Cueball1's K1s, 1st gen 15x8, and my old Enkeis. All three fit his radial 11.75" setup, none fit the TSE 11.75" kit. The 6ul would have fit with a spacer.

can you point me in the direction of these? I am curious what the difference between them and the calipers in the 949/tse kit.
are these it?:

http://www.wilwood.com/Calipers/Cali...Radial%20Mount

Yes, the .81" rotor thickness version. They're $250 a piece vs. the $125 lug mount version.

Edit: And they're included in the mini kit you buy to get it all working with a miata BTW.

hmmm, cool. Good thing I am not fading my brakes yet, ---- is expensive!

Hence TSE's kit. $900 and you only need to source your $50-$80 pads. I believe the mini kit starts there and still requires fabrication.

And then the previously mentioned 11" option, if you can find the used brackets.

TCE will sell the Mini kit with all the parts necessary to make it a direct fit Miata kit for the Mini kit Price. Cost a bit more than TSE 11.75 I think but if you price piece parts the difference in cost between DynaPro Radial calipers versus Forged Dynalite and straight vane ultra lite rotors versus GT directional it should cost a lot more.

The Difference:

1 Radial Dynapro calipers weigh more I think maybe 1lb per side (you can look it up on wildwood site.)
2 Radial Dynapro calipers fit better in a lot of 15” with limited radial clearance. (Dimensions on wilwood site)
3 Radial Dynapro uses thicker pads that last longer with significantly more usable pad thickness to wear through. (Deminsions can be found on wildwood site)

They both have the same options for replacement rotors.

At a minimum you need sport brakes with sport calipers in the rear to match these kits.

FWIW Im pretty much wearing through pads front versus rear at roughly the same rate with 11.44" rear rotors sport rear calipers 1.6l rear pads.

Bob
.

Bros, I would never consider tracking my car without the TSE 11.75. I run competitive times in TXMC when you consider that I don't have aero, I took 2nd in TTB last season among a few E90s and S197s...I've done 11 days at the track since then (one in the rain) and I'm still on the first set of pads (DTC-60) and no heat cracks in the rotors. Front caliper temps went from 500*f+ on the sport brakes to 500*f on the Wilwood caliper with the TSE Corrado kit, down to 290*f with the TSE Biggest kit. The only borderline problem I struggle with is rear brake temp using the M-tuned kit. we need ducting in the rears. I will recoup the out-of-pocket on these brakes near mid-season since I'm not longer going through a set of rotors in 3 days (with damatic cracking and breaking) and a set of pads every two days.

I was destroying rotors in short order with a corrodo rotor setup and pad life was horrible. Made the switch years ago and never looked back. I pioneered the Mini Kit because I did it long before 949 was even in business and I had determined that Dynalite calipers wouldn't fit in half my current wheels at the time with 11.75" rotors and Dynapro radial calipers would.

Bob

From what I've seen, the Mini kit (Plus 1 Wilwood track kit for $959 is what we're comparing right?) is only $60 more expensive than the TSE kit. The Mini kit has the stiffer, radial-mount Dynapro with SS pistons, 11.75"x0.81" directional rotors with hats, brackets, lines, and pads. The fact that the radial caliper has less clearance issues and wouldn't require a spacer and/or longer studs is just a bonus.

TSE offers the same, except for different calipers.

Is the $60 that much of an obstacle just for the ease of not having to enlarge 4 boltholes by 1mm?

I'm not trying to poop in anyone's cereal, I have the original 11" TSE kit with zero complaints, but I'm looking for a lighter rotor setup. Why would I not get the Mini kit from TCE and sell my near-new Dynalites, brackets and rotors and recoup ~75% of the cost of the Mini kit? I probably wont need the centering rings for the rotors anymore and re-use the lines from my current Dynalite setup.

both kits use directional rotors. the difference is in the caliper and mounting bracket. where do you have to enlarge the hole? On the knuckle?

I’m pretty sure Trackspeeds $31 rotors are not directional. FWIW though I have gone through a number of different rotors in testing having had 11.75" brakes since 2005. The cheaper non directional ones still work pretty well in this application and they are lighter. You get a little more surface cracking from heat.

Bob

no you are right, I should have said:

both kits can use directional rotors.

The trackspeed kit uses a wilwood rotor, I think:
http://www.wilwood.com/Rotors/RotorP...temno=160-0471

Any rotor of similar setup will work.

In my 250whp car, the straight veins are sufficient and last a long time. I expect to get 10+ days on rotors, I'm over that already on the first set. I don't think I could get 30-days on a directional rotor making the cost jump not so worth it.

So have we determined any vented rotors for the rear sport brakes? they are 10.8" right?

This is what I have found. The performance difference is small. The straight vanes are good enough by the time you get to an 11.75" size. But if you look at kit price totals directional vane rotors typically cost 3X as much. Best rotors so far I have used have been from Colman racing, but again the performance or longevity difference is nowhere near the replacement cost difference. The thing about the 8 on 7” bolt pattern is there are tons of choices for replacement friction rings, you could even go weight reduced scalloped if you want.

Bob

I plan to do this after I triple-dip gild my calipers and get that naked lady airbrushed on my hood.

I actually thought about using scaloped rotors on a dedicated SSM autocross car.

Bob

When you had the 11" kit were you ducted at all? Are you ducted at all with the 11.75" kit? I seem to remember you are, you had some ugly ass ducts made before TSE came out with their kit...

They are 10.8, although I don't think they're vented. There's a 11" (11.75"?) RX7 rotor and caliper set that can be fab'd to fit, although Cueball1 has it and says "meh", and Sav knows about it and doesn't run it, if that tells you anything. There's also the V8R option that puts wilwoods and vented 11.75" rotors in the back, but that gets rid of the parking brake and there's no rear only option I can find.

Wasn't there a Wilwood caliper with a handbrake solution as well? I thought I've seen it somewhere, but can't recall where exactly.

Bob, do you have any pictures of the initial installation of your mini cooper wilwood kit? I'm 50/50 on it now. If the bolts are all that's to it, I'll probably pull the trigger on it.

I've always had effective ducting, today it's prettier than it was years ago.

Trying not to thread hijack but I think this is a good place to ask....I have the goodwin BBK and was thinking of upgrading to the 6 piston front and moving the 4 piston to the rear but I would need a custom mount for the rear. Is this a bad idea/overkill? There's not much here on the goodwin kit and I only got it because a local guy was selling it out of desperation and basically gave it to me.

Try to convince us that it's NOT a bad idea/overkill, and then we'll tell you why it IS a bad idea/overkill. This is not the forum to just throw out ideas without doing even the slightest modicum of research.

6 piston calipers are completely unnecessary and over kill. If you want to move wilwoods to the back, just buy another set of 4 piston.

I hate to say it, but Sav, TSE, and his black car are a great way to judge your upgrades. If he hasn't done it, it's probably not worth it. I'm not saying the rears wouldn't benefit from wilwoods, and I think Sav is still running sport rears, but 6 pistons in the front is still over kill.

Edit: sav beat me to it.

Sorry and thanks

BTW, I ran 6-pots in the front for a while. I still have the calipers, they're sitting in a box. Small improvement in pedal feel (less than what we found going from 11" to 11.75") and virtually no pad life increase in exchange for a massive increase in pad cost. We'll sell you a BBK with 6-pots (it's a $325 option on top of our full $900 kit), but there's no benefit beyond the bling.

Good-win has a wilwood two piece 10.75" rear rotor and bracket to fit the stock caliper on it.

Not cheap though, comes in at ~600, which is the same price for the no-caliper TSE kit.

Yea, I would have been looking for increased pad life, feel, and bling but if the only real benefit is bling, I'll atleast pay for the shipping if you need the space :)

The write up I did early in 2005.

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/737924...e-2#7379240007

Since then switched to sport calipers in the rear 1.375" pistons instead of 1.25” huge improvement, the bias valve actually has a usable range of adjustment now.

switched to 1” master cylinder from a 929 slight improvement to modulation feel.

I have looked at willwood rear parking brke calipers they actually make a rear kit for the Mini. The downside is they only have them to fit vented rotors and I think the parking brake hook up is backward to fit right with stock parking brake cables on the Miata.


Bob

In my opinion and from experiance with my kit Vented rotors in the rear are unnecessary overkill. Just extra weight.

Bob