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Old 01-17-2012, 04:49 PM   #1
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Default Big Brake Differences

Hey guys, Trying to read up about the big brake kits available. The two I am comparing right now are the TSE 11.75" and the 949 11"
TSE:
http://trackspeedengineering.com/sto...99d3d0a4e0b062
949:
http://949racing.com/949-miata-big-brake-kit.aspx

few QQs:
is there a difference in the calipers? It seems both use 4-piston dynalite pistons (although the 949 has an option for 6-piston dynapro), but I just want to clarify that one isn't larger than the other.
is there a difference between the rotor hats?
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Old 01-17-2012, 05:13 PM   #2
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The 949 kit is a kit made by Wilwood. The TSE kit is a kit with brackets they made in house used with VW rotors. Calipers are the same unless you upgrade and I would asume the 949 hats are lighter bc I believe it's a 2 piece design.

Edit: I actually looked at both adds and the TSE kit uses the same rotors/hats so I assume they are the same.
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Old 01-17-2012, 05:26 PM   #3
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no they are not actually. the TSE 11.75" uses an 8 bolt pattern for the rotors, while the wilwood kit at 949 uses a 6x6.25 bolt pattern for rotors. The pistons are the same though. Thanks guys, all makes more sense now!
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Old 01-17-2012, 05:41 PM   #4
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Then you have the 11.75 using parts from the Mini Kit with raidal mounted DynaPros (a radial bracket mounted to slightly enlarged axial holes in the spindle...)
https://www.miataturbo.net/showthrea...t=54434&page=5
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/mini/kits-16/ (get the Miata parts in the kit by asking Todd).
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Old 01-17-2012, 05:58 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiklasFalk View Post
Then you have the 11.75 using parts from the Mini Kit with raidal mounted DynaPros (a radial bracket mounted to slightly enlarged axial holes in the spindle...)
https://www.miataturbo.net/showthrea...t=54434&page=5
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/mini/kits-16/ (get the Miata parts in the kit by asking Todd).
Is Todd someone who works at TCE or ...?

edit: I answered my own question - this is Todd https://www.miataturbo.net/members/todd-tce-17656/
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Old 01-17-2012, 06:07 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boost Joose View Post
Edit: I actually looked at both adds and the TSE kit uses the same rotors/hats so I assume they are the same.
Still wrong, we use an 11.75" Wilwood rotor, not an 11" Wilwood rotor. The bracket is also a bespoke unit that is designed for use in the Miata, not a kludged bracket that needs spacers to fit the rotor correctly.

If you can fit them under your wheels, the 11.75s are better. Pads cost the same and last longer, the brake feel is significantly better, and the rotors are SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than a comparable 11" rotor ($31 vs $81).

For hardcore track junkies, the rotor cost is a big deal - no matter what pad you use (CT or Hawk), eventually you'll develop thermal cracks even with a non-drilled/slotted rotor. I inspect the rotors at every pad swap and swap them on either the 2nd or 3rd set of pads. The cost savings on the rotors will pay for a set of pads every time you need to swap them.

The only downside to the 11.75s is the wheel clearance - since they are designed for track junkies, they only fit under 15x9 6ULs with a 5mm spacer, or 15x10 6ULs with no spacer. They will clear most 16s (OEM Sport wheels) and Team Dynamics SM wheels as well.
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Old 01-17-2012, 09:44 PM   #7
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Sav dont forget to add to your list.. the 11.75 do fit behind 15x9 TRM C3M's with the spacer too. They barely make it without a spacer, but I wouldn't do it.
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:15 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 240_to_miata View Post
Sav dont forget to add to your list.. the 11.75 do fit behind 15x9 TRM C3M's with the spacer too. They barely make it without a spacer, but I wouldn't do it.
The radial mount calipers have better radial clearance and use thicker pads that last longer for the same price. The calipers by themselves cost significantly more though

Bob
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:18 PM   #9
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To add a little more clarity, Boost Joose was right a year ago. TSE's kit was for 11" Corrado rotors, which could be had for cheap ($30 each), although they're a one piece OEM rotor, so very heavy compared to a two piece unit like FM's, Goodwin's, 949's, etc. which all have aluminum hats.

If you can find TSE's kit used from someone it's still a good option, since you'll have cheap rotors, cheap wilwood pad options, and you'll get rid of your pad taper.

You'll also only need to pay $550 to upgrade if you ever decide to do the 11.75" kit, since you'll already have brake lines, calipers, and pads.

There are some draw backs to the VW rotor, I believe a number of brands crack easier than others, and although it's only a .75" difference, the bigger kit is still MUCH better. I just wouldn't suggest discounting the 11".
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:22 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbundy View Post
The radial mount calipers have better radial clearance and use thicker pads that last longer for the same price. The calipers by themselves cost significantly more though

Bob
This.

I had the 11.75" briefly until I realized it wouldn't fit any wheel option I wanted to buy. In retrospect I should have just ponied up the extra $135 for the 6ul, but it would also mean the extra $250 for the two rotor hats. That was almost $400 I didn't have at the time.

However, when I had the kit, I tried it with Cueball1's K1s, 1st gen 15x8, and my old Enkeis. All three fit his radial 11.75" setup, none fit the TSE 11.75" kit. The 6ul would have fit with a spacer.
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:42 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbundy View Post
The radial mount calipers have better radial clearance and use thicker pads that last longer for the same price. The calipers by themselves cost significantly more though

Bob
can you point me in the direction of these? I am curious what the difference between them and the calipers in the 949/tse kit.
are these it?:

http://www.wilwood.com/Calipers/Cali...Radial%20Mount
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:50 PM   #12
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Yes, the .81" rotor thickness version. They're $250 a piece vs. the $125 lug mount version.

Edit: And they're included in the mini kit you buy to get it all working with a miata BTW.
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:52 PM   #13
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hmmm, cool. Good thing I am not fading my brakes yet, ---- is expensive!
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:55 PM   #14
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Hence TSE's kit. $900 and you only need to source your $50-$80 pads. I believe the mini kit starts there and still requires fabrication.

And then the previously mentioned 11" option, if you can find the used brackets.
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Old 01-17-2012, 11:58 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curly View Post
Hence TSE's kit. $900 and you only need to source your $50-$80 pads. I believe the mini kit starts there and still requires fabrication.

And then the previously mentioned 11" option, if you can find the used brackets.
TCE will sell the Mini kit with all the parts necessary to make it a direct fit Miata kit for the Mini kit Price. Cost a bit more than TSE 11.75 I think but if you price piece parts the difference in cost between DynaPro Radial calipers versus Forged Dynalite and straight vane ultra lite rotors versus GT directional it should cost a lot more.

The Difference:

1 Radial Dynapro calipers weigh more I think maybe 1lb per side (you can look it up on wildwood site.)
2 Radial Dynapro calipers fit better in a lot of 15” with limited radial clearance. (Dimensions on wilwood site)
3 Radial Dynapro uses thicker pads that last longer with significantly more usable pad thickness to wear through. (Deminsions can be found on wildwood site)

They both have the same options for replacement rotors.

At a minimum you need sport brakes with sport calipers in the rear to match these kits.

FWIW Im pretty much wearing through pads front versus rear at roughly the same rate with 11.44" rear rotors sport rear calipers 1.6l rear pads.

Bob
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:00 AM   #16
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Bros, I would never consider tracking my car without the TSE 11.75. I run competitive times in TXMC when you consider that I don't have aero, I took 2nd in TTB last season among a few E90s and S197s...I've done 11 days at the track since then (one in the rain) and I'm still on the first set of pads (DTC-60) and no heat cracks in the rotors. Front caliper temps went from 500*f+ on the sport brakes to 500*f on the Wilwood caliper with the TSE Corrado kit, down to 290*f with the TSE Biggest kit. The only borderline problem I struggle with is rear brake temp using the M-tuned kit. we need ducting in the rears. I will recoup the out-of-pocket on these brakes near mid-season since I'm not longer going through a set of rotors in 3 days (with damatic cracking and breaking) and a set of pads every two days.
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:57 AM   #17
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Bros, I would never consider tracking my car without the TSE 11.75. I run competitive times in TXMC when you consider that I don't have aero, I took 2nd in TTB last season among a few E90s and S197s...I've done 11 days at the track since then (one in the rain) and I'm still on the first set of pads (DTC-60) and no heat cracks in the rotors. Front caliper temps went from 500*f+ on the sport brakes to 500*f on the Wilwood caliper with the TSE Corrado kit, down to 290*f with the TSE Biggest kit. The only borderline problem I struggle with is rear brake temp using the M-tuned kit. we need ducting in the rears. I will recoup the out-of-pocket on these brakes near mid-season since I'm not longer going through a set of rotors in 3 days (with damatic cracking and breaking) and a set of pads every two days.

I was destroying rotors in short order with a corrodo rotor setup and pad life was horrible. Made the switch years ago and never looked back. I pioneered the Mini Kit because I did it long before 949 was even in business and I had determined that Dynalite calipers wouldn't fit in half my current wheels at the time with 11.75" rotors and Dynapro radial calipers would.

Bob
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Old 01-18-2012, 12:10 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbundy View Post
TCE will sell the Mini kit with all the parts necessary to make it a direct fit Miata kit for the Mini kit Price. Cost a bit more than TSE 11.75 I think but if you price piece parts the difference in cost between DynaPro Radial calipers versus Forged Dynalite and straight vane ultra lite rotors versus GT directional it should cost a lot more.

The Difference:

1 Radial Dynapro calipers weigh more I think maybe 1lb per side (you can look it up on wildwood site.)
2 Radial Dynapro calipers fit better in a lot of 15 with limited radial clearance. (Dimensions on wilwood site)
3 Radial Dynapro uses thicker pads that last longer with significantly more usable pad thickness to wear through. (Deminsions can be found on wildwood site)

They both have the same options for replacement rotors.

At a minimum you need sport brakes with sport calipers in the rear to match these kits.

FWIW Im pretty much wearing through pads front versus rear at roughly the same rate with 11.44" rear rotors sport rear calipers 1.6l rear pads.

Bob
.

From what I've seen, the Mini kit (Plus 1 Wilwood track kit for $959 is what we're comparing right?) is only $60 more expensive than the TSE kit. The Mini kit has the stiffer, radial-mount Dynapro with SS pistons, 11.75"x0.81" directional rotors with hats, brackets, lines, and pads. The fact that the radial caliper has less clearance issues and wouldn't require a spacer and/or longer studs is just a bonus.

TSE offers the same, except for different calipers.

Is the $60 that much of an obstacle just for the ease of not having to enlarge 4 boltholes by 1mm?

I'm not trying to poop in anyone's cereal, I have the original 11" TSE kit with zero complaints, but I'm looking for a lighter rotor setup. Why would I not get the Mini kit from TCE and sell my near-new Dynalites, brackets and rotors and recoup ~75% of the cost of the Mini kit? I probably wont need the centering rings for the rotors anymore and re-use the lines from my current Dynalite setup.
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Old 01-18-2012, 12:25 PM   #19
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both kits use directional rotors. the difference is in the caliper and mounting bracket. where do you have to enlarge the hole? On the knuckle?
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Old 01-18-2012, 02:27 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Track View Post
both kits use directional rotors. the difference is in the caliper and mounting bracket. where do you have to enlarge the hole? On the knuckle?
Im pretty sure Trackspeeds $31 rotors are not directional. FWIW though I have gone through a number of different rotors in testing having had 11.75" brakes since 2005. The cheaper non directional ones still work pretty well in this application and they are lighter. You get a little more surface cracking from heat.

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