Drawing the line: Driver mod vs Having the right parts - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain discuss the wondrous effects of boost and your miata...

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-03-2013, 02:59 PM   #1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Skokie, IL
Posts: 213
Total Cats: 4
Default Drawing the line: Driver mod vs Having the right parts

Hey everyone,

After being presented with a great deal on second hand XIDAs, it got me thinking the other day: where do you guys draw the line between driver development and having the right parts to do the job?

For instance, it is often recommended to beginners that they start off on street tires (RS3, Star Specs, etc) because unlike an r comp that has the potential to hide their bad habits, street tires provide a lower breakaway point while still providing a good amount of grip. However, you wouldnt typically recommend they purchase a set of all seasons since its grip/feel characteristics may actually hinder the learning process.

Another example is suspension. While XIDAs, AFCOs, Motons, and Ohlins are the established best suspension options, most recommend to start off with Koni/GC or Tein Flex as an acceptable option to learn on. Not only is it unlikely that a new-intermediate driver would be able to make the most of the setup, but similar to tires, ive read arguments that starting off with such high end suspensions would also mask some bad driving habits as well. However you wouldnt recommend racelands either.

In my particular situation, this is my second season (6-7 track events), the last 2 of which have been on STANCE coilovers. Ive recently upgraded to 9k front springs. Im debating whether to spend the $900-1000 after selling off the stance for XIDAs, or keep the stance and use the money towards track events. However, im wondering if having XIDAs would actually shorten the learning curve or lengthen it.

Sorry for the long post, but curious as to what you guys think. May serve as a decent topic of discussion.
itskrees is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2013, 03:23 PM   #2
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,391
Total Cats: 58
Default

There is no real problem with learning using the most capable parts setup in the best possible way, but many don't want to shovel all the money needed up front to do so (fresh tires per session, 3-4 person team to help you).

You can learn many things using less expensive tools and get a similar development curve (even though it flattens at a lower level).

One thing is important though, get tools with adjustments that make sense.
72 click adjustments where the useful ones are 28-32 is quite frustrating. Even expensive (and capable) shocks have stupid adjustments sometimes.
NiklasFalk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2013, 04:03 PM   #3
Senior Member
iTrader: (18)
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Big Bear Ca
Posts: 990
Total Cats: 8
Default

Subscribed. Good question.
dstn2bdoa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2013, 04:49 PM   #4
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,366
Total Cats: 1,328
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by itskrees View Post
For instance, it is often recommended to beginners that they start off on street tires (RS3, Star Specs, etc) because unlike an r comp that has the potential to hide their bad habits, street tires provide a lower breakaway point while still providing a good amount of grip. However, you wouldnt typically recommend they purchase a set of all seasons since its grip/feel characteristics may actually hinder the learning process.
True. Specifically, street tires have lower lateral grip limits and smoother breakaway characteristics - that is to say, when they break away, they do so slowly and predictably. R-comps grip harder and break away more quickly, so it's difficult for a beginner to flirt with the limits without getting frustrated.

Quote:
Another example is suspension. While XIDAs, AFCOs, Motons, and Ohlins are the established best suspension options, most recommend to start off with Koni/GC or Tein Flex as an acceptable option to learn on. Not only is it unlikely that a new-intermediate driver would be able to make the most of the setup, but similar to tires, ive read arguments that starting off with such high end suspensions would also mask some bad driving habits as well. However you wouldnt recommend racelands either.
I disagree with this. I recommend used Koni Race/GC or Flex only to people who can't afford XIDAs or similar yet. Better shocks make the car easier to drive, but they won't mask bad driving habits or make it more difficult to find the limit (if anything, they make it easier to find the limit by making the car more predictable).

As far as driver vs. parts, that's a tough question. Parts are more fun, but often times the seat time is more valuable. Another thing to consider is making sure you're getting the most out of your seat-time - using tools like driver coaching or data acquisition to quickly zero in on issues can make a huge difference if you're just starting out or if you're way off the pace. Having a hotshoe drive your car with a datalogger onboard is probably one of the most valuable things you can do.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2013, 01:06 PM   #5
Senior Member
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Rafael, CA
Posts: 1,125
Total Cats: 41
Default

+1 on everything Sav said. The Xida's made the car less twitchy and nervous.
k24madness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2013, 10:07 PM   #6
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Leafy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 9,093
Total Cats: 90
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
True. Specifically, street tires have lower lateral grip limits and smoother breakaway characteristics - that is to say, when they break away, they do so slowly and predictably. R-comps grip harder and break away more quickly, so it's difficult for a beginner to flirt with the limits without getting frustrated.
Its not just this, its also the hoosier magic. You see there is a relationship between grip and slip angle. And there is a slip angle that results in maximum grip. Newish hoosiers grip level stays fairly flat well past the optimum slip angle then eventually just goes to nothing (Sav's hard break away), and as they age they start to nose off more. Street tires normally drop off sharply when you go past the optimum slip angle. This is why you'll often see a driver on hoosiers look like they're about to completely clobber a cone or spin off into the grass and then they just work a little magic and all is well, you cant do that on streets. Also due to this nature of R comps you can be fairly fast even when over driving the car, that doesnt work on streets either. Streets also dont respond as well to jerky inputs, I could easliy crank the wheel too fast on my car when it was on RS3s and just understeer, cranking the wheel too fast with hoosiers on my car really isnt possible with the current steering rack in my car, you have to move the wheel as fast as you can just to keep up.
Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Project Gemini - Turbo Civic on the Cheap Full_Tilt_Boogie Build Threads 58 12-13-2017 10:04 PM
OTS Bilstein to motorsports ASN conversion stoves Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 5 04-21-2016 04:00 PM
Moroso Air Oil Separator Catch Can Aroundcorner Miata parts for sale/trade 2 10-01-2015 04:20 PM
3rd Time's a Charm...hopefully. zephyrusaurai Meet and Greet 2 09-28-2015 11:59 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:15 AM.