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Old 03-12-2018, 07:39 PM   #1  
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Default Front end refresh - what's needed?

Hey all

I've reached the point where I need to do all the boring stuff with my suspension... bushings, ball joints, etc. I've got the full complement of energy bushings (control arms and diff bushings) waiting to go in. I'm also planning to do the front upper and lower ball joints, and outer tie rod ends. Is there any known issue with using MOOG for the upper/lower/tie rod ends? I've had good luck with their stuff in the past. Are the inner tie rods worth doing while I'm in there? The moog front end "kit" includes them on other cars. Can you think of anything else I might be missing? Engine mounts are relatively fresh.

Cheers
Tyler
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Old 03-12-2018, 08:35 PM   #2  
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Best to go with Mazda OEM on these, I've heard bad stories of the MOOG joints prematurely popping. Might as well go with the extended lower ball joints while you're in there.

Tie rods, use the Mazda OEM 93 LE part number, to reduce bump steer (assuming you're lower than stock). Should be N021-32-280A.

Upper joints will have to be pressed in unless you want to buy a new control arm. So no choice other than MOOG there AFAIK , which is what I'm currently using.
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Old 03-13-2018, 01:56 AM   #3  
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Consider doing a bronze sleeve bearing retrofit from hi_im_sean in the poly bushings. Everything will work a lot better, with less squeak and better ride quality.
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Old 03-13-2018, 02:01 AM   #4  
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^and not seize in under a year and be worse than the oem setup.

I have the delrin setup. If you can't afford the full kit yet from Sean, DONT install the energy bushings. Just wait until you can afford an actual upgrade.
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Old 03-13-2018, 09:37 AM   #5  
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Originally Posted by thumpetto007 View Post
^and not seize in under a year and be worse than the oem setup.

I have the delrin setup. If you can't afford the full kit yet from Sean, DONT install the energy bushings. Just wait until you can afford an actual upgrade.
So... I'm a little confused about what this thread claims. The Energy kit has sleeves - I presume a mild steel of some sort, though I've emailed them to ask - between the bushing and the bolt that goes through each control arm. Where is the reported binding supposed to occur?
Complete Suspension Bushing Kit - Mazda Miata 1990-1997

Last edited by Morello; 03-13-2018 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 03-13-2018, 10:12 AM   #6  
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You should go read though the Miata Bushing MEGAthread thread for some more info on that.

TL;DR: The included sleeves are't precision machined parts nor are they bushings, just sleeves to stop the bolts from crushing everything.
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Old 03-13-2018, 01:24 PM   #7  
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https://www.miataturbo.net/suspensio...3/#post1312826

I'd say this describes me. I don't need best, and the car is an 85% street car. What track driving I do is HPDE on 200tw tires. Not sure it's worth the extra $320+ to go from good to great.
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Old 03-13-2018, 04:01 PM   #8  
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Thats fine, just make sure to drill (through the bushing) tap, and install grease fittings for every bushing, and actually grease them frequently.

Make sure to really clean and smooth out the sockets before putting the bushings in, and have them greased as well.
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Old 03-13-2018, 04:18 PM   #9  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Humjaba View Post
https://www.miataturbo.net/suspensio...3/#post1312826

I'd say this describes me. I don't need best, and the car is an 85% street car. What track driving I do is HPDE on 200tw tires. Not sure it's worth the extra $320+ to go from good to great.
It is. Unless you constantly grease the ES bushings, all you're doing is trading binding for stiction. Not only do the iron-copper sleeves eliminate 90% of that stiction, they are also far, far less maintenance-intensive than the standard Energy setup.

For an 85% street car with HPDE use, if you're going to do bushings, I would absolutely pony up for the iron/copper option.
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Old 03-13-2018, 06:11 PM   #10  
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^ second.

I originally had poly with the provided steel sleeves. There is no grease and no amount of greasing that will keep them from squeaking and sticking (eventually) when the car is cold until the bushings warm up. It was highly annoying. I converted to the bronze sleeves from SadFab when they came out and have been very pleased ever since.

Some thoughts - if your FUCA ball joints are worn out, the ball joint on the v8r FUCA is serviceable, unlike OEM, which is how I ended up with them.

How old are your rear hubs? If they are original, I would highly recommend replacing them.

This would be a good time to add the extended lower ball joints for the extra camber.
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Old 03-13-2018, 07:36 PM   #11  
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Or an offset lower control arm bushing. Also available from SADFab.

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Old 03-13-2018, 07:37 PM   #12  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Humjaba View Post
So... I'm a little confused about what this thread claims. The Energy kit has sleeves - I presume a mild steel of some sort, though I've emailed them to ask - between the bushing and the bolt that goes through each control arm. Where is the reported binding supposed to occur?
Complete Suspension Bushing Kit - Mazda Miata 1990-1997
Basically, the sleeves do not rotate freely within the poly bushings. Greasing helps, but does not perform well for any length of time. This friction causes squeaking and actually degrades ride quality on the street, aside from just being undesirable for track use.

Putting an SAE 863 sleeve bearing inside the bushing and outside the sleeve makes it rotate very freely with no downside aside from the cost. It actually makes the biggest difference in the "real world" with water and grit. The kits need to include new sleeves, since they're packaging more things in the same space and improving the surface finish of the sleeve.
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Old 03-13-2018, 10:07 PM   #13  
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The poly/bronze retrofits are $230 now. There is a waiting list. I should probably update that price sheet.
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:22 AM   #14  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
^ second.

I originally had poly with the provided steel sleeves. There is no grease and no amount of greasing that will keep them from squeaking and sticking (eventually) when the car is cold until the bushings warm up. It was highly annoying. I converted to the bronze sleeves from SadFab when they came out and have been very pleased ever since.

Some thoughts - if your FUCA ball joints are worn out, the ball joint on the v8r FUCA is serviceable, unlike OEM, which is how I ended up with them.

How old are your rear hubs? If they are original, I would highly recommend replacing them.

This would be a good time to add the extended lower ball joints for the extra camber.
I know a dozen or so people who have them and haven't had these issues... My plan had been to add zerk fittings and just grease them whenever I change the oil. Is that not enough?
Rear hubs are original and I check them before every track day for cracks... so far so good. Good insurance though.
I'm not maxed out on the stock camber adjustment, so I'm not sure I need more.

hi_im_sean what's the wait time? I have access to a lathe, I may just make my own.
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Old 03-14-2018, 03:53 PM   #15  
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Might depend on climate. I tried the provided grease, I tried the magic amsoil grease, and I tried anti-seize. None worked for me with the steel sleeves. In the morning the car would sound like cheap box springs in the bed of a by-the-hour motel.

The thing about the rear hubs is, the failures happen quickly when they happen. You might catch it starting, you might not. IIRC 100 track hours has been put forth as a change interval. When you change them, you may find it impossible to separate them from the uprights. This was the case with my original 130k 2001. Even though it was a northwest car and therefore didn't see salt, we found it impossible to get them out of the uprights. Broke two different pullers. Tried short term heat. Tried long term heat lamps with a penetrating oil drip (1 month). Aidan took a crack at it with his various tools and a press. I gave up and ordered full rear assemblies from Mazda.

If you continue running the existing rear hubs, I'd give them a look over during lunch at least, if not after every session.
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Old 03-14-2018, 04:33 PM   #16  
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Interesting. I've had ES bushings on a few cars. For many years(5+) not once had a squeek at all. We rarely drive in the rain though and not over winter. Maybe a little stiction but it really isnt bad. I use Mobil 1 molybdenum grease. Tracked now and then.

But I am interested in the Iron/copper sleeves. Are they sold without bushings?
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Old 03-14-2018, 04:34 PM   #17  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neilv View Post
Are they sold without bushings?
Yes. They are only sold without bushings.

Read the above thread: https://www.miataturbo.net/suspensio...cussion-87573/
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