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ITT: We discuss T5 swaps and other information.
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Well I finally bought one. 110k on it from an 02 mustang. Paid $300 for it in oregon, your prices may vary.
Attachment 231088 I'm going to start out with some information I have gathered from around the web. Mostly from Savington's thread.
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1282070)
A quick change of direction, and a peek into the future. One of the many things we'll use this chassis to develop is a T5 swap kit, and this is the beginning of that development. The box is a -238 code from a 1996 3.8L Mustang, which is desirable for a few reasons:
For people who want a 100% bolt-in solution, you'll have to shell out $1100 for a new T5z box, but converting the V6 box to V8 spec is easy. You need the input shaft, bearing, bearing cover plate, and a shim kit, all of which can be had for ~$140 or so, which means you can put the gearbox itself together for well under $300 without any special one-time deals or hard to find parts. The clutch disc was $110 and it's a performance organic disc with a 10-spline T5 center. It will get swapped for a 26-spline piece when I do a G-Force gearset next year. All the G-Force boxes are set up around 7.18" input shafts (V8), not the ~7.8" shafts that came in the V6s, so in order to accomodate built gearboxes, we'll build around the 7.18" length. The bellhousing is cut off a blown 5-speed (everyone considering this swap probably has a blown 5-speed in their garage) and it will be milled down to the correct length and welded to an adapter plate which will be done in a few weeks. Using a chopped-up OEM bellhousing means I can retain the stock TOB, stock clutch fork, and stock hydraulics, so from the front, it will look like a Miata transmission with a 10-spline input shaft sticking through, and there are no issues with reliability or fitment on any of those critical items. So that's the trans>engine attachment all sorted out. Next big puzzle is the shifter extension. The PPF bracket should be a little easier. https://i.imgur.com/hjAfbNY.jpg?
Originally Posted by aidandj
(Post 1359868)
Necro post. My research shows that the 94-98 boxes were from the 6-232, and the 99-04 were from the 6-238. And thats when the electronic speedo switchover happened. Am I totally off base?
Correct me if I'm wrong. 90-93 V8 box = correct length input shaft, bad overdrive. More $$$ because mustangs like em. 94-98 V6 box = Longer input shaft. But good overdrive. Uses 3.35 first gear so we can use a v8 input shaft. Mechanical speedo 99-04 V6 box = Longer input shaft. Good overdrive. 3.35 first gear, but with electronic speedo. 94-95 V8 box = Longer input shaft, bad overdrive, 3.35 first gear
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1359873)
232 is a GM box. 238 is the 95-97 V6 Ford box.
Identification Key to Borg-Warner T5 transmission ID Tags Ford World Class Transmisson identification
Originally Posted by aidandj
(Post 1359879)
Wow there is all sorts of conflicting information out there.
Going to edit this post instead of continuing to fill up your thread. Auto/Man Trans Gear Ratios for V6 & GT ? - The Mustang Source - Ford Mustang Forums But then according to this: http://www.mongosgarage.com/tech/t5/T5Numbers.PDF the 98-99 had a .73 overdrive. and the 99-01 doesnt have ratios listed. I guess unless I can find some real info the 94-98 is the safe one to go with. And I guess the 96-98 had the electronic speedo? I wish other platforms had a version of mt.net, with actual fact checking instead of just numbers. I picked a 99-04 box for a couple reasons, the main one being strength. It has the stronger gears of the V8 box, with a .68 overdrive. This is a little low, but I'm hoping it will be manageable. It has an electronic speedo sender, which can be used to connect to a megasquirt and an NB cluster. It was also cheaper than the 90-93 boxes that are more popular. I'm going to swap in an input shaft from a 90-93 box, which will give me the same dimensions of the Astro A-5's which can handle 485+ ft/lbs. Plans for the swap: I'm going a similar route as Savington. I will chop off a spare miata bellhousing. Build a 1/2" flange that matches the t5. weld the miata bellhousing to the t5 flange. Get some clutch discs for the twin disc that fit the mustange input shaft. Aquire correct pilot bearing and make some sort of throwout bearing work. Use stock miata hydraulics. Some sort of PPF adapter. Plan for the shifter: Pop out freeze plug. Build extension rod that connects to the shifter inside the box. Keeps the dentents in the box. Send a shaft out the freeze plug with a bushing and an oil seal to keep the oil in. Mount a shifter back behind where the miata shifter goes. Hope it doesn't interfere with the driveshaft. Somewhere along the way I will screw up horribly and fail, but at least it will be documented!!! Post questions and information here! Parts and other information: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing |
I am in for results. I was discussing this swap with a well known miata fabricator because I wanted him to use my car as the guinea pig for a kit he could offer to the community. He ended up deciding that his other projects had a bigger market and were easier for him to deliver in a way that he could sell so he chose not to pursue. Very disappoint.
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Is there a future SADFab opportunity for those who do not have such facility for magic?
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Nope. Andrew is working on a kit for people who would like to pay.
This thread is for my personal transmission swap, and for information for others to use along their way. My next research step is going to be pilot bearing. I'll measure a stock bearing tonight and the input shaft of the t5 and start searching. |
Subbed for awesome info
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I just made some pilot bushings for mine. Bought some oilite the right OD for the crank and had them reamed to .670+.002. But that was for the 19mm OD MZR pilot bearing. If the bp is 24mm then the mustang one just works.
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Subbed for this. If anyone in chicago land is also interested let me know. I have a couple of extra bell housings. We can be the midwest development arm of Halfast Racing. (wholly owned subsidiary of Mickey Mouse Motorsports.
I think the .68 fifth should be fine with 250+ hp cars. |
I think the belhousing is going to be the easiest part. Chop, mill, weld, mill.
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Originally Posted by aidandj
(Post 1360460)
I think the belhousing is going to be the easiest part. Chop, mill, weld, mill.
We also need to find the utube video of the guy that already made the shift extension. |
Pilot bearing:
Mustang:
Time to do some searching and find what we need. |
Originally Posted by 2manyhobyz
(Post 1360461)
Yeah, I think so too. One of the housings will be sacrificed with lots of inspection cut outs to see how every thing is lining up. Did I see you already got the input shaft?
We also need to find the utube video of the guy that already made the shift extension. Nobody has done the shift extension the way I plan, AFAIK. The video on youtube is a bit different. Idk exactly where it was though. |
Originally Posted by 2manyhobyz
(Post 1360461)
Yeah, I think so too. One of the housings will be sacrificed with lots of inspection cut outs to see how every thing is lining up. Did I see you already got the input shaft?
We also need to find the utube video of the guy that already made the shift extension. Or just cut a big hole. I have 3 spare 5 speeds right now. |
Just what i came up with quickly on mcmaster. its only 0.394" wide but would work. Ill dig in the timken catalog tomorrow
McMaster-Carr 17x35x11mm is what were after for those that measure in proper units :) |
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Don't recall exact p/n, but AFAIK no 11mm-wide bearing exists. Thankfully the flywheel is only 10mm thick anyway, so I have a 10mm-thick bearing.
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Originally Posted by aidandj
(Post 1360468)
Modeling clay for depth. Flywheel+pilot bearing for axial alignment. Then tack it in place probably.
Or just cut a big hole. I have 3 spare 5 speeds right now. But then again, I'm not sure how accurate it needs to be. T5z input shaft was .017" off SBF crank centerline when the bellhousing dowels were aligned. |
I want to keep my twin disc. And the Miata hydraulics. Getting everything digitized wouldn't be that bad of an idea though...
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Must not have been an inch. You need smaller measurements for yours.
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Pilot Bearing Part Number:
SKF 6003-2rs1/c3ht51 Timken 103CC Thank you sean Edit: Rockauto says that it is from a 1985 Peugeot 505. Thats awesome. |
Double Post
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Originally Posted by TurboTim
(Post 1360513)
Or send everything to me and I'll digitize it all. While I do have some T5z and miata 5speed stuff in solidworks, it's not enough for me to feel comfy building an adapter off of. I did them quickly to just have something in my assembly, not to base parts from. I built my adapter from the block models; I made my adapters to convert to a SBFord cranks & bell housing and i'm running all mustang clutch stuff.
But then again, I'm not sure how accurate it needs to be. T5z input shaft was .017" off SBF crank centerline when the bellhousing dowels were aligned. But getting the t5 perfectly centered is going to be hard. Current plan is to make a jig that bolts onto the miata bellhousing, and has a hole in the middle to align the input shaft correctly. |
I got that already, currently in SW2016. If you need it in an older generation SW file I may be able to find it on a backup. It may or may not be useful to you, but you may as well look at it. But again, if it were me, I'd base crank centerline-to-locating dowels off a digitized block than a transmission. :dunno:
Your "chop, mill, weld, mill" is exactly how I would do it. The chopped & milled bellhousing and appropriate plate that gets welded to it should be milled with a large chamfer on the edge to facilitate penetration. Fixture plate locates off engine/trans dowel holes. Seems pretty straight forward. |
Originally Posted by TurboTim
(Post 1360631)
I got that already, currently in SW2016. If you need it in an older generation SW file I may be able to find it on a backup. It may or may not be useful to you, but you may as well look at it. But again, if it were me, I'd base crank centerline-to-locating dowels off a digitized block than a transmission. :dunno:
Your "chop, mill, weld, mill" is exactly how I would do it. The chopped & milled bellhousing and appropriate plate that gets welded to it should be milled with a large chamfer on the edge to facilitate penetration. Fixture plate locates off engine/trans dowel holes. Seems pretty straight forward. Fixture plate would have dowels like the engine block to locate it on the trans bellhousing. Then slide the t5 in on top of it and get it lined up perfectly. Tack weld it. I think we are in agreement here, but i'm not sure if I understand what you are saying exactly. Then either see if my 200amp chinaTIG can do it. Or take it to a shop with a bigger welder. We do have a 305amp tig at work. But its older than I am and I'm not very good with it. |
Originally Posted by aidandj
(Post 1360633)
Do you have a digitized block also? I kind of assumed they would be the same.
Fixture plate would have dowels like the engine block to locate it on the trans bellhousing. Then slide the t5 in on top of it and get it lined up perfectly. Tack weld it. Then either see if my 200amp chinaTIG can do it. Or take it to a shop with a bigger welder. We do have a 305amp tig at work. But its older than I am and I'm not very good with it. |
I wouldn't be eyeballing it. The plate would be on the face of the mazda bellhousing. and it would have a hole for the input shaft. Input shaft would have an extension on it to center it perfectly in the middle of the bellhousing. Then I know that the bellhousing is perfectly centered on the T5 and I can weld the chopped off bellhousing to the T5 "flange"
Does your digitized bellhousing have the input shaft too? So i know exactly where the middle is? And yes this is basically a one off. I might be making 2 or 3, but by no means production. |
Originally Posted by aidandj
(Post 1360640)
I wouldn't be eyeballing it. The plate would be on the face of the mazda bellhousing. and it would have a hole for the input shaft. Input shaft would have an extension on it to center it perfectly in the middle of the bellhousing. Then I know that the bellhousing is perfectly centered on the T5 and I can weld the chopped off bellhousing to the T5 "flange"
Does your digitized bellhousing have the input shaft too? So i know exactly where the middle is? And yes this is basically a one off. I might be making 2 or 3, but by no means production. |
I'm gonna send you an email from when you sent me the t5 dxf :)
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You should note that you have a 99-03 T5 from a V6. The tail shaft is slightly different for an electronic speedo but can easily be swapped for any gear driven unit and the input shaft has some differences but I can not confirm. Some tailshafts do not have a synchronized reverse.
The T5 was dropped behind v8 mustangs in 1996 when the 4.6 came out, the modular V8's from 96 up had a T45 and then a TR3650 which both have integral bell housings. The T5 was behind every manual V6 mustang 1994-2010. I have no information on 2005-2010 T5's as this generation of mustang used the 4.0 V6 which has a different The 3.8 and 4.0 do not share a bell housing bolt pattern. |
I thought I mentioned that. I wanted the electronic speedo, because it is a Hall sensor and can be used with a digital input.
2005-2010 had a body mounted "remote shifter" Input shaft is the same for all the 3.8 V6's. |
Sorry, you did. I glossed over that part using the mobile app earlier.
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So I did some measuring and brainstorming with sean yesterday for a TOB solution. And I think I have an idea. The real questions are italicized and bolded.
Here are the measurements: T5: TOB Sleeve OD 1.435" TOB Sleeve thickness ~.1", couldn't really measure it well. Input shaft OD: 1.054" Miata: TOB Sleeve OD 1.296" My first thought was to turn down the TOB sleeve on the T5 to fit a miata TOB. But that won't work, so my next plan is to press the sleeve out of the T5, and machine a new one, that has the OD of the Miata TOB, with an ID that will fit over the input shaft. How much clearance should the input shaft have from the TOB sleeve? In reality will the input shaft move at all while supported by the pilot bearing? Picture of T5 TOB sleeve https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1c38c05194.jpg I also still need to get my hands on a 90-93 V8 T5 input shaft. Not sure if new or used is the way to go. |
Just enough so things aren't touching. 10 thou would probably be a conservative minimum. The shaft should only move around radially as much as the bearings allow. Which should be less than a thou.
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Originally Posted by hi_im_sean
(Post 1360989)
Just enough so things aren't touching. 10 thou would probably be a conservative minimum.
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There is plenty of room, you could easily have an 1/8" wall at the miata TOB OD, and still have ~20 thou clearance on the radius. This idea works, assuming it all presses apart and together the way we discussed. Torch and press ready yet?
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Now onto the alignment jig.
This one was all tommy's idea. Its basically a barbell looking fixture, that aligns on the miata crank, and the t5 flange. This allows perfect alignment, while the miata bellhousing is located to the block with dowels. The fixture bolts to the crank, then the chopped miata bellhousing gets bolted to the block. The t5 flange then gets aligned on the fixture, and welded in place. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...44cb2e1ab0.png The last direction of alignment is to get the correct "rotational" alignment of the t5 flange, not sure exactly how I'll do that yet. |
Aren't their pairs of flange bolts that are normally perfectly horizontal? Sounds like you could just make a plate to hold a digital angle gauge to the trans during jigging.
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Originally Posted by afm
(Post 1361004)
Aren't their pairs of flange bolts that are normally perfectly horizontal? Sounds like you could just make a plate to hold a digital angle gauge to the trans during jigging.
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F-bodies tilt that flange 18 degrees CCW for ground clearance FWIW, so you have room to play with for packaging constraints. It just affects the shifter packaging.
Jigging the rotation off a vertical rear mount bolt would make for maximum ease of PPF attachment in the small chance this isn't exactly the same as a level shifter base. A neighbor with a T5-swapped turbo Volvo is starting a swap on his Miata. May have pics someday. |
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[QUOTE=aidandj;1360988]So I did some measuring and brainstorming with sean yesterday for a TOB solution. And I think I have an idea. The real questions are italicized and bolded.
Here are the measurements: T5: TOB Sleeve OD 1.435" TOB Sleeve thickness ~.1", couldn't really measure it well. Input shaft OD: 1.054" Miata: TOB Sleeve OD 1.296" My first thought was to turn down the TOB sleeve on the T5 to fit a miata TOB. But that won't work, so my next plan is to press the sleeve out of the T5, and machine a new one, that has the OD of the Miata TOB, with an ID that will fit over the input shaft. How much clearance should the input shaft have from the TOB sleeve? In reality will the input shaft move at all while supported by the pilot bearing? Picture of T5 TOB sleeve https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1c38c05194.jpg I also still need to get my hands on a 90-93 V8 T5 input shaft. Not sure if new or used is the way to go.[/QUOTE Would it be possible to put the T5 throw out bearing onto the Miata clutch fork? Might be another option. |
Maybe, but the interfaces looked a lot different. IMO the way i have thought of is easier.
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Are you able to use the stock Miata TOB with the twin disk clutch? I'm using a teeny tiny little AP Racing hydraulic release bearing with my Quartermaster 5.5".
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Originally Posted by acedeuce802
(Post 1361029)
Are you able to use the stock Miata TOB with the twin disk clutch? I'm using a teeny tiny little AP Racing hydraulic release bearing with my Quartermaster 5.5".
Driveshaft will be cake. Shifter will be fun. |
Originally Posted by aidandj
(Post 1361017)
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Same gearing. Same input shaft length, same shifter. different speedo output.
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Originally Posted by aidandj
(Post 1361030)
I have been for almost a year now. I'm waiting on emilio to find a new supplier for organic discs and ask if he can make me a set for the mustang input shaft. Then I should have clutch, pilot, TOB, and bellhousing figured out.
Driveshaft will be cake. Shifter will be fun. On SBF T5's, the shifter is angled 5° when the cross member mount is horizontal. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1473941938 |
Wow thanks for that info. I'm glad I didn't assume.
I need to do more measuring. PPF is gonna be a struggle. Im going to build a negative jig that locates a piece of PPF right where it goes on the Miata trans. Then stick the t5 on. And build to that jig. Or I will chicken out and do a solid mount. |
Be sure to have a way to adjust pinion angle in both directions, unless you're real good or real lucky. It was only until this year that I got a combination of pinion angle and driveshaft balance that worked for my setup. hehehe
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With a ppf adapter? Or with a solid mount?
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Originally Posted by 2manyhobyz
(Post 1361020)
Would it be possible to put the T5 throw out bearing onto the Miata clutch fork?
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5 Attachment(s)
Pulled off the bearing cover to get the TOB sleeve out. You can see where the sleeve meets the cover, its super tight, nowhere to press. So I drilled a hole in the end of the sleeve and stuck a bigass nail through it, to press against. Then I heated the fuck out of it, and it came out easy.
Depth inside bearing cover: 1.1125" Attachment 231083 Attachment 231084 Attachment 231085 Attachment 231086 Attachment 231087 |
I also updated the original post with a link to my spreadsheet with all the data.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing |
Dude what the fuck, press that shit back in there and buy this. 6000-Series Hydraulic Release Bearings - Tilton Engineering You want to measure the diameter of the tips your twin disk fingers with the clutch cover tightened and order the closest diameter to that for the release bearing. You'll have way better clutch feel with the proper release bearing on that twin disk than the stock miata crap.
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$400. LOL. Good joke.
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I think he forgot who he was dealing with :rofl:
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I actually paid $420 through modern driveline for the radius 44mm to go with my quartermaster clutch. I figure it was worth it since I got a twin disk about the same weight as the 949 for $800. And I could have been super stupid and got the tiny fucking one and been even lighter.
If you want to turn that steel sleeve down I'll sell you the quartermaster release bearing I decided to not use because of the having to turn down the already too thin sleeve for $100. |
And I got my twin disk for $400. But that doesn't really matter.
The goal of this project is to get a transmission for less than a 6 speed that holds the same power. Is cheaper to replace, and has real upgrade options. |
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Originally Posted by Leafy
(Post 1361263)
I actually paid $420 through modern driveline for the radius 44mm to go with my quartermaster clutch. I figure it was worth it since I got a twin disk about the same weight as the 949 for $800. And I could have been super stupid and got the tiny fucking one and been even lighter.
If you want to turn that steel sleeve down I'll sell you the quartermaster release bearing I decided to not use because of the having to turn down the already too thin sleeve for $100. Did you miss the picture where I drilled 2 massive holes in it? Attachment 231082 |
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