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Learning how to tune suspension. Kindergarten level.

 
Old 07-24-2017, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by vitamin j View Post
Wants to learn how to tune suspension and figure how changes "feel."

Goes to first ever auto-x on 215 tires.

Decides he needs 275 tires before the next auto-x.


Not quite the path I would have chosen. Maybe some 195s or 205s and a tunable suspension would have been a better place to start. Hell, no one has even mentioned alignment settings yet.
I said 275s for future consideration. I built the car for me off of no experience, so I'm trying to learn more about it. By the way, you were great as the main antagonist in the hit movie "Sausage Party".

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Old 07-24-2017, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Alumilo View Post
Whoa nelly!
I hope you don't plan on dumping all that into the car in one fell swoop. Stick with what you have and learn to drive it fast. Once you feel that you have exhausted all the adjustments to the car as is, then put money into making it fast.
I never said I would do all of that at once. Just options for piecing it together over the next year or two. The car isn't even turboed yet and I haven't settled on what I really want out of the car as far as what I want to do with it. I'm just not limiting myself with options. I have a hell of a long road ahead with learning how to drive it properly.
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Old 07-26-2017, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Philly Miata View Post
II realize I can throw money at it and get Xidas but I'm just nowhere near good enough to get a lot out of that quite yet, or so that's my understanding.
I hear this rationalization not to get the best and have to disagree.

You know good food when you taste it, yet you are not a chef.
You know good music when you hear it, but are not a musician.
You know something beautiful when you see it, but are not an artist.
You know a god car when you drive it, but are not Lewis Hamilton,

You will appreciate better quality suspension. You don't need to be an expert driver.
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Old 07-26-2017, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
I hear this rationalization not to get the best and have to disagree.

You know good food when you taste it, yet you are not a chef.
You know good music when you hear it, but are not a musician.
You know something beautiful when you see it, but are not an artist.
You know a god car when you drive it, but are not Lewis Hamilton,

You will appreciate better quality suspension. You don't need to be an expert driver.
This.

Besides, unless you plan on upgrading pretty often (sounds expensive to me!) you WANT suspension that performs at a level greater than you are currently capable of. Gives you room to grow your skills as a driver and not be limited by your equipment. It also limits variables so you can better focus on where you need to improve.

As somebody that recently went from the Tokico/FM package to Xidas this year, I'm running over 2 seconds faster (comparing time differentials between myself and the fast guys) on a 50-second Auto-X course on the exact same set of tires I was running last year. Now I made I number of other changes too, but subjectively I will say that the suspension swap was most of that gain. Now, Xidas may be out of the budget and that'd be a fine reason for not going to that level right now. However, I don't believe driver skill is a good excuse.
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Old 07-26-2017, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dleavitt View Post
This.

Besides, unless you plan on upgrading pretty often (sounds expensive to me!) you WANT suspension that performs at a level greater than you are currently capable of. Gives you room to grow your skills as a driver and not be limited by your equipment. It also limits variables so you can better focus on where you need to improve.

As somebody that recently went from the Tokico/FM package to Xidas this year, I'm running over 2 seconds faster (comparing time differentials between myself and the fast guys) on a 50-second Auto-X course on the exact same set of tires I was running last year. Now I made I number of other changes too, but subjectively I will say that the suspension swap was most of that gain. Now, Xidas may be out of the budget and that'd be a fine reason for not going to that level right now. However, I don't believe driver skill is a good excuse.
ohh this excites me. I am currently running the Tokico/FM package and plan on moving to Xidas. I fully understand what an improvement it will make at speed, but what about in day to day driving?
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Old 07-26-2017, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Philly Miata View Post
I never said I would do all of that at once. Just options for piecing it together over the next year or two. The car isn't even turboed yet and I haven't settled on what I really want out of the car as far as what I want to do with it. I'm just not limiting myself with options. I have a hell of a long road ahead with learning how to drive it properly.
Sorry, you know how message boards are... I sorta imagined you excitedly clicking "Buy Now" on all those things...
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Old 07-26-2017, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Philly Miata View Post
I said 275s for future consideration. I built the car for me off of no experience, so I'm trying to learn more about it. By the way, you were great as the main antagonist in the hit movie "Sausage Party".
You have no experience, and this is your first build. You want to start at the "kindergarten level" and you want to know "how everything you have ties together."

In that case you should get some more reasonably sized tires, adjustable shocks/coilovers, and figure out what your alignment settings are and what the numbers mean. From there you should drive, drive, drive until you can put down good times and don't knock over any cones. Then you add the Xidas and 275s.

As your car sits, it has more grip than a Corvette but with the suspension of a Honda. You will learn nothing about how the car handles, or about how the changes you make affect the car's balance. All you will learn is that those tires are expensive and guys driving stock Miatas are faster than you. You will poke around with your sway bars and mess with tire pressures but the wide tires will hide the effects from you and you'll end up trying to tune out your bad habits through changing the car rather than having the skills to drive and understand the changes you should make.
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Old 07-26-2017, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Conley View Post
ohh this excites me. I am currently running the Tokico/FM package and plan on moving to Xidas. I fully understand what an improvement it will make at speed, but what about in day to day driving?
Early this month I went on a 1600 mile roadtrip in my Miata with my wife. She didn't notice any ride difference between the Tokico/FM and the Xidas, and had no complaints about ride quality (within the context that a NA Miata isn't exactly comfy in general). For myself I can notice that the ride is more stiffly sprung than the previous setup but not necessarily less comfortable, just different.

That being said, my Miata is a toy/third car so I don't care so much about silly things like "comfort", "practicality", or "YOU SPENT HOW MUCH?!"
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Old 07-26-2017, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dleavitt View Post
Early this month I went on a 1600 mile roadtrip in my Miata with my wife. She didn't notice any ride difference between the Tokico/FM and the Xidas, and had no complaints about ride quality (within the context that a NA Miata isn't exactly comfy in general). For myself I can notice that the ride is more stiffly sprung than the previous setup but not necessarily less comfortable, just different.

That being said, my Miata is a toy/third car so I don't care so much about silly things like "comfort", "practicality", or "YOU SPENT HOW MUCH?!"
I'm in the same boat with my Miata. Thanks for the feedback.
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Old 07-26-2017, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Conley View Post
I'm in the same boat with my Miata. Thanks for the feedback.
No problem. Only other thing to keep in mind is ride height: Xidas will put you lower (unless you are going for the upcoming Xida XLs). That has had way more impact on day to day driving than the spring rate change. Of course, this isn't something unique to Xidas: all sorts of shocks will get you low and increase navigational hazards (curbs, speed bumps, etc.). The difference is with Xidas you won't sacrifice ride quality at low (but still sane) ride heights.
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Old 01-30-2019, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Philly Miata View Post
"Pointy end" I like that haha. So you introduced me to a new term, valving. A google search later and my understanding is that valving is the size of the hole that allows the fluid to travel through (damping?) on compression and rebound, so the two parts of the assembly are the spring and the shock(?)... I'm figuring spring is for rebound and the shock itself controls the amount and rate of compression... am I right so far?
You are right If you simplify it. One thing is revalving to handle other spring rates which 95% requests. Second thing is fine tuning which is the most difficult part of shocks tunning.
To handle spring rates you need proper amount of damping in some areas, regarding to fine tunning You need to be experianced shock tunner and good test driver ( i mean not the fastest one) but someone who fells every small details.
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Old 01-30-2019, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Bronson M View Post
To get to the pointy end of a class like that you need to jump from below 400lb/in spring rates and long soft bump stops to 700/350 - 1000-550 lb/in range and invest in shocks that will control those rates.

This is where you'll find a lot of opinions, exida's are a proven commodity. Afco's are also an option, but no shock will be worth the money without the proper valving. In fact even lowly old Bilstein's with the right valving can kick some butt.

(Personal opinion alert) I've looked at the valving of hard s and MSM Bilstein's and calculated the critical dampening % and the low speed numbers look pretty decent up to 800/450 range. The high speed numbers are a little soft, so they won't be as good on rough tracks. A revalve by someone who knows what they're doing and I betcha they would be darn close to the high end stuff without adjustability. I'm running stock hard s shocks with 800/450 rates and the car does pretty darn good.
Do You have some graphs comparison between hard s and MSM which You mentioned ?
I am curious to look on those values if you said that you use stock bilies with 800/450 and it drives properly.
regarding to Your calculation i was annoyng as well due to lack of forces in high speed area ( main demerit do digressive valve ). I prepared some upgrades with lifted hih speed area and i will test it soon.
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Old 01-30-2019, 06:00 AM
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These graphs have been floating around the interwebs for a while now. You can see the damper rates, I'll have to dig up my critical damping spreadsheet later this week when I get back from my trip.
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Old 01-30-2019, 06:05 PM
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Here's the rebound critical damping for an MSM bilstein with 600lb spring (I think assumed stock-ish weight ~2400lb)



They're pretty over damped at low speeds (< 3inch/sec), about right at 3IPS, and pretty under damped at higher shaft speeds. Compression low speed damping is better suited tho.

They could definitely be better, but you can see why they're workable for the higher spring rates people use them for with coilover conversions- plenty of low speed to control body movement.
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Old 01-31-2019, 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Junkwhale View Post
Here's the rebound critical damping for an MSM bilstein with 600lb spring (I think assumed stock-ish weight ~2400lb)



They're pretty over damped at low speeds (< 3inch/sec), about right at 3IPS, and pretty under damped at higher shaft speeds. Compression low speed damping is better suited tho.

They could definitely be better, but you can see why they're workable for the higher spring rates people use them for with coilover conversions- plenty of low speed to control body movement.
Linear valve with high speed adjustability would be grear solution.
below my concept. I have not tested it yet on car.

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Old 01-31-2019, 05:01 AM
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I prepared critical damping calculations

front vs rear for stiff and soft springs setup

Attached Files
File Type: xlsx
critical.xlsx (108.2 KB, 6 views)
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