Money to burn (949 clutch)
03-12-2012, 03:01 PM
#22
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Sigh... Went ahead and ordered the 949 early this morning. It was time to make one and move on with life. Feel I am already having buyers remorse. lol Oh well. it may be everything I ever wanted. At least in the end I can say I experimented regardless of the outcome. Will have to relate my experiences in 6 months or so. Would be a shame to have to drive my PSD dually dailly cuz of miata maintenance..
Thanks so much for the feedback. All of it was taken in. The 949 or a FM2 clutch is my way to go for future growth. I can turn my boost back up :-) I see a "why did my rods bend?" future posting. lol
Thanks so much for the feedback. All of it was taken in. The 949 or a FM2 clutch is my way to go for future growth. I can turn my boost back up :-) I see a "why did my rods bend?" future posting. lol
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03-12-2012, 04:00 PM
#23
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you'll love it even if you change it often.
The first time you rev the engine with that thing in there, you'll think you're on a motorcycle. BRIM BRIM!!@#$
The first time you rev the engine with that thing in there, you'll think you're on a motorcycle. BRIM BRIM!!@#$
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03-12-2012, 04:21 PM
#24
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cool, Since I no longer have my bikes, the Miata is the closest I can get to the feeling. I think I will enjoy it. Glad I burned the money. btw - Wanted to thank you for tuning info in your many posts. I have found a wealth of info in the timing discussions to play with.
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03-16-2012, 10:20 PM
#25
Y8S has experience with his own Tilton DIY set up that indicates faster wear but no experience with our twin. More friction area equal less wear, not more. That's just basic physics.
The few customers I have with twin organics that have had the opportunity to inspect it (blown engine or trans), have all reported little or no wear with either heavy track use in a boosted car or daily driving.
Every bit of data I have here indicates our 184mm twin will last at least as long as an OEM 225mm single style system, if not longer
To the OP, an OEM style clutch will be easier to daily drive but if longevity is a concern, you can't do better than our twin organic.
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03-17-2012, 08:38 AM
#26
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Ben, is this a guess or have you actually experienced accelerated wear with out twin organic?
Y8S has experience with his own Tilton DIY set up that indicates faster wear but no experience with our twin. More friction area equal less wear, not more. That's just basic physics.
The few customers I have with twin organics that have had the opportunity to inspect it (blown engine or trans), have all reported little or no wear with either heavy track use in a boosted car or daily driving.
Every bit of data I have here indicates our 184mm twin will last at least as long as an OEM 225mm single style system, if not longer
To the OP, an OEM style clutch will be easier to daily drive but if longevity is a concern, you can't do better than our twin organic.
Y8S has experience with his own Tilton DIY set up that indicates faster wear but no experience with our twin. More friction area equal less wear, not more. That's just basic physics.
The few customers I have with twin organics that have had the opportunity to inspect it (blown engine or trans), have all reported little or no wear with either heavy track use in a boosted car or daily driving.
Every bit of data I have here indicates our 184mm twin will last at least as long as an OEM 225mm single style system, if not longer
To the OP, an OEM style clutch will be easier to daily drive but if longevity is a concern, you can't do better than our twin organic.
I have driven cars on your clutch, and it's pretty awesome.
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03-17-2012, 09:51 AM
#27
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Ben, is this a guess or have you actually experienced accelerated wear with out twin organic?
Y8S has experience with his own Tilton DIY set up that indicates faster wear but no experience with our twin. More friction area equal less wear, not more. That's just basic physics.
The few customers I have with twin organics that have had the opportunity to inspect it (blown engine or trans), have all reported little or no wear with either heavy track use in a boosted car or daily driving.
Every bit of data I have here indicates our 184mm twin will last at least as long as an OEM 225mm single style system, if not longer
To the OP, an OEM style clutch will be easier to daily drive but if longevity is a concern, you can't do better than our twin organic.
Y8S has experience with his own Tilton DIY set up that indicates faster wear but no experience with our twin. More friction area equal less wear, not more. That's just basic physics.
The few customers I have with twin organics that have had the opportunity to inspect it (blown engine or trans), have all reported little or no wear with either heavy track use in a boosted car or daily driving.
Every bit of data I have here indicates our 184mm twin will last at least as long as an OEM 225mm single style system, if not longer
To the OP, an OEM style clutch will be easier to daily drive but if longevity is a concern, you can't do better than our twin organic.
The number of friction surfaces is irrelevant to wear-per-surface. This is because you're still slipping it the same amount as a regular single disk. The forces are the same in the pressure plate (lets assume--i.e. same pedal pressure but double torque holding for same-size disk). If you slip a single disk, say, 500 rotations and clamp it with 10 lbs of force, then the wear will be the same if you slip two disks 500 rotations when clamped with 10 lbs of force. Same would be true for 10 disks. Same clamping force, same slip distance (or angle).
The reason it only lasts half as long is because you're wearing four surfaces instead of two. Say your single disk clutch has a .280 thick disk and can wear down to .240 before it stops holding. Total wear is .040.
A twin plate clutch would--in theory--slip at the same total wear value (assuming they use a similar pressure plate with a similar clamp distance) of .040 but each disk will only have to have worn half that total amount (.020).
In fact if you pull up Tilton's installation instructions, they say essentially this same thing:
Originally Posted by Tilton
• Discs - Clutch discs start new at .283” thick. These should be replaced when the total pack wears .030”. This means the
individual disc thickness should not be less than:
•Single disc = .253” • Two disc = .268”
source: http://www.tiltonracing.com/pdfs/53.pdf
individual disc thickness should not be less than:
•Single disc = .253” • Two disc = .268”
source: http://www.tiltonracing.com/pdfs/53.pdf
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03-17-2012, 12:23 PM
#28
The reason it only lasts half as long is because you're wearing four surfaces instead of two. Say your single disk clutch has a .280 thick disk and can wear down to .240 before it stops holding. Total wear is .040.
In fact if you pull up Tilton's installation instructions, they say essentially this same thing:
So... ultimately the twins wear out faster but the disks are only "half" worn out compared to a single disk setup.
In fact if you pull up Tilton's installation instructions, they say essentially this same thing:
So... ultimately the twins wear out faster but the disks are only "half" worn out compared to a single disk setup.
The key here is that our twin is designed to allow both discs to wear to their limits while the cover still has proper articulation. IOW, it's worn out when both discs are 100% worn, not 50% worn as it is with the Tilton.
In practice, the clutch has so little slip that it wears very slowly. Again deferring to the several customers that have inspected theirs and reported "no wear at all". I translate that to no discernible or only slight measureable wear but you get the idea.
We offer replacement discs for $105 each. Have not sold any replacement discs to a twin owner yet.
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03-17-2012, 01:30 PM
#29
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My clutch should arrive today. I find the wear chat pretty interesting. Looking at other multi-disk set ups I would not expect this clutch to wear much different than a single disk. the only exception would b some airplane brakes. Key to those though is too small for the plane and overworked. Anyway, I am eager to get this thing installed and find out. Reading the comments, I am certain I will enjoy the clutch.
For the bad news- I had a standing offer to my brother to give him this car and build another. Of course I get a call now.lol He wont get it til mid-summer though.
For the bad news- I had a standing offer to my brother to give him this car and build another. Of course I get a call now.lol He wont get it til mid-summer though.
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03-17-2012, 03:24 PM
#30
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Ah, using Tilton's method of determining service limits, that make sense. They say two discs last twice as long as one discs (same diameter) but lose the equivalent amount of material at the same point as a single.
The key here is that our twin is designed to allow both discs to wear to their limits while the cover still has proper articulation. IOW, it's worn out when both discs are 100% worn, not 50% worn as it is with the Tilton.
In practice, the clutch has so little slip that it wears very slowly. Again deferring to the several customers that have inspected theirs and reported "no wear at all". I translate that to no discernible or only slight measureable wear but you get the idea.
We offer replacement discs for $105 each. Have not sold any replacement discs to a twin owner yet.
The key here is that our twin is designed to allow both discs to wear to their limits while the cover still has proper articulation. IOW, it's worn out when both discs are 100% worn, not 50% worn as it is with the Tilton.
In practice, the clutch has so little slip that it wears very slowly. Again deferring to the several customers that have inspected theirs and reported "no wear at all". I translate that to no discernible or only slight measureable wear but you get the idea.
We offer replacement discs for $105 each. Have not sold any replacement discs to a twin owner yet.
One other thing to keep in mind is that on a track, you're not slipping hardly at all. In stop and go traffic you are. My biggest problem was heat management. once the floater warped, it didn't matter how worn things got.
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03-21-2012, 10:03 AM
#32
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Price looks good. To good? Did not see any torque figures. The ebay stuff in this price range appear to be a hit or miss. For my interests, a single disk will still have the additional clutch pressure to up the capacity. Which is what i was trying to avoid. And I wanted growth potential. Maybe someone here has run one...
I have a beautiful 949 clutch that I am admiring daily until I get it dropped in.
I have a beautiful 949 clutch that I am admiring daily until I get it dropped in.
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07-11-2012, 09:39 AM
#33
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Hey guys, thought I should follow up. Took a while to get the clutch in, then had some non-related issues. Once all sorted out I must say the clutch is excellent. I really like the feel and pressure. The shorter throw makes shifting real sweet. Turned up the boost and got my go fast car back. YAY! Have to agree with the consensus that such a light flywheel is not good for a/c. We shall see how it wears. 231k on the car now.
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07-12-2012, 12:19 PM
#39
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Yes it is. Feels like about 1/2 the inertia of a stock setup if that makes sense. It will have to be in great idle tune to support the a/c at idle on MS1. If you can get MS1 to work well at all near stock RPM. I am going to the MS3 very shortly which was part of my plan. btw - car is off to the brother so I only get to hear about how much fun it is now days. Drove it around the smoky mountains for a few days. what a blast.
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