My Budget Big Brake Kit using Corrado rotors - Page 3 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain discuss the wondrous effects of boost and your miata...

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-29-2008, 01:22 PM   #41
Elite Member
iTrader: (13)
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Tigard, Oregon
Posts: 3,908
Total Cats: 0
Default

Gee, I wonder if there is a market for a BBK for the Miata that uses larger cheap and easily available rotors, stock calipers and costs less than $100 bucks. Hmmm....


Out with it already! Times a wastin!



he,he
cueball1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2008, 01:36 PM   #42
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,583
Total Cats: 8
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I've had a set done, but was not ready for mass production. We are ready to go with these but are doing a few things a little different so no grinding of bolts is required etc.

Here is a thread with more details for all of you..

https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t28696/#post335453
I'm out of the office right now, but I'll post up the pictures of the dangerous resonances and failure modes of the original parts. I still can't believe your post about it getting "copied" I do real engineering work here, with 3 different aerospace oriented manufacturers, I don't just COPY work. Just like the oil pump gears, they had both tolerance issues, and features which were not present in the end part.

Anything I touch has my own engineering refinements put into it, and I use the latest software and hardware systems for my analysis. I would never put someones LIFE at risk without doing some serious work on it first. I hope you can guarantee the product for 8-10 years of abuse.

Lets see what I prepared for...

Did you check your material for cold performance? Did you use an SAE or mill-spec certified material? Did you use a coating with a 10 year service life? Did you check for resonances that cause squeal and failure of the assembly and the brake pads? Did you check for fatigue of applying the moment forces present to the part over a 10 year span? How many cycles is that exactly? Did you rigorously check the geometry for flaws?

I did if you didn't maybe you should get a lucky rabbits foot or something

As for the sponsor comment in your group buy post, I've sold 6000 dollars in revenue to this forum and made enough to pay for my own set of oil pump gears and about 140 bucks. All my stuff has been as safely close to charitable as possible, that's an asinine thing to say.
TravisR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2008, 02:12 PM   #43
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
patsmx5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,797
Total Cats: 248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
I'm out of the office right now, but I'll post up the pictures of the dangerous resonances and failure modes of the original parts. I still can't believe your post about it getting "copied" I do real engineering work here, with 3 different aerospace oriented manufacturers, I don't just COPY work. Just like the oil pump gears, they had both tolerance issues, and features which were not present in the end part.

Anything I touch has my own engineering refinements put into it, and I use the latest software and hardware systems for my analysis. I would never put someones LIFE at risk without doing some serious work on it first. I hope you can guarantee the product for 8-10 years of abuse.

Lets see what I prepared for...

Did you check your material for cold performance? Did you use an SAE or mill-spec certified material? Did you use a coating with a 10 year service life? Did you check for resonances that cause squeal and failure of the assembly and the brake pads? Did you check for fatigue of applying the moment forces present to the part over a 10 year span? How many cycles is that exactly? Did you rigorously check the geometry for flaws?

I did if you didn't maybe you should get a lucky rabbits foot or something

As for the sponsor comment in your group buy post, I've sold 6000 dollars in revenue to this forum and made enough to pay for my own set of oil pump gears and about 140 bucks. All my stuff has been as safely close to charitable as possible, that's an asinine thing to say.
If the prices are the same, I'm gonna buy what I think is the better part. Pretty sure that's the mentality of most miata people. This is assuming both parts are available. If one was available first, then that part will likely sell first of course. Some people are impatient. I'm curious as to the "dangerous resonances" comment you made. I worry about the pics posted above where the guy ground the bolts down. That's not for me at all. I want something I can bolt on, torque down, and KNOW it's right. And not so much as second guess whether the parts are overbuilt. The last thing I want to worry about when tripping the lights at the 1/4 miles is if the middle pedal is gonna work.
patsmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2008, 06:38 PM   #44
Elite Member
iTrader: (13)
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Tigard, Oregon
Posts: 3,908
Total Cats: 0
Default

Travis & Marc,

While everyone loves a good pissing contest between vendors I prefer to mock them when they happen on other boards!

1st to market, best price, best product, availability, etc. all play a factor in who people will buy from.

Again, if someone is going to do a bracket for stock calipers why not also do a bracket that will fit whatever the most popular upgrade caliper might be. Any bracket made to fit with a common and affordable disc is good for me. Corrado or the sport disc won't make much difference.
cueball1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2008, 06:46 PM   #45
Guest
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Vaughan, On, Canada
Posts: 1,092
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
I still can't believe your post about it getting "copied" I do real engineering work here, with 3 different aerospace oriented manufacturers, I don't just COPY work. Just like the oil pump gears, they had both tolerance issues, and features which were not present in the end part.
I agree Cueball, I don't want a pissing contest ...

I posted the original idea on April 15 to use the stock Caliper on the Corrado rotor and have been working on it/testing it ever since. We made one complete set which I have been testing.

As for engineers... We have access to 3-4 and one of them even designs expansion joints for Nuclear Power stations. I come up with the ideas and drawings. They then take it and tell me if it will work, or how they can make it work. [email protected] also designs parts for a large aftermarket automotive company and even has parts on some OE cars. He is not new to this either.

This was not a project we decided to draw on paper or CAD and mass produce. I give the original poster 10 out of 10 for making the brackets. We are doing things a little different and probably have some similar concerns as do you.
M-Tuned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2008, 06:47 PM   #46
Elite Member
iTrader: (13)
 
cjernigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 8,147
Total Cats: 6
Default

Maybe Travis should attack both a bracket for the stock caliper and one for a 4 piston wilwood like goodwin.
cjernigan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2008, 06:51 PM   #47
Guest
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Vaughan, On, Canada
Posts: 1,092
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
I I worry about the pics posted above where the guy ground the bolts down. That's not for me at all. I want something I can bolt on, torque down, and KNOW it's right. And not so much as second guess whether the parts are overbuilt. The last thing I want to worry about when tripping the lights at the 1/4 miles is if the middle pedal is gonna work.
I hear ya! [email protected] designed a couple of different setups for my old 11.00 Miata, my 9 second Civic and his 10 second CRX. I was running almost 150mph in my civic with a 26" slick and I never worried one bit.

Never mind some different stuff he has done for street cars and some customer stuff.
M-Tuned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2008, 06:53 PM   #48
Elite Member
iTrader: (13)
 
cjernigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 8,147
Total Cats: 6
Default

I'd love to see a kit utilizing a larger vented rear disc. Just for ***** and giggles. Go big or go home.
cjernigan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2008, 07:53 PM   #49
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,583
Total Cats: 8
Default Here it is

Here are the problems, with the original part.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Original Part S&R.pdf (48.4 KB, 337 views)
TravisR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2008, 07:57 PM   #50
Elite Member
iTrader: (8)
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Dallas
Posts: 1,841
Total Cats: 0
Default

Everything sounds cool on the massive side, but...................
That side gets expensive. These guys have to make money, and there are aftermarket kits, they already have available.

I am all about this cheaper way. I can watch a junk yard for rotors and put in wrench time. But I dont want to rig it up. That usually runs into dangerous measures. Yall's plan sounds simple and easy. And something I can afford!

Thanks to both of you guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Toddcod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2008, 07:35 AM   #51
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,583
Total Cats: 8
Default

I know there are alot of guys on here with 15's, but what do you think about an even larger rotor? Extra stopping power is proportional to the radius of the rotor with no upgrades to hydraulic system. So if you've got 16's, 17's or even 18's we could entertain larger options.

We could go all the way upto something around the Yukon size rotor with 13 inch.

That would give you about 44% more stopping performance over stock, better heat arrest for less fade, and those rotors are generally higher qaulity because they are rated for a larger vehicle. Think about it, 60-0 when stopping a miata at 1000kg you only have to bleed 391Kj of energy to stop. A Yukon loaded to the max combined towing and vehicle weight is rated at 5400 Kg. So it has to stop 1,992Kj. 5 Times the braking energy has to be absorbed by the rotors. So from the factory the rotors must be built for prolonged extreme temperatures for towing in mountains, and very high durability doing it to meet such a rating.

With that size I think the down side is that I would have to make a 4 lug center adapter. Nothing that large is going to magically fit in there. Depending on what I could get the rotors for I could maybe get those done for 80 dollars or so a piece. I've found them for 40 online, but I still have to machine the center hub. The upside is that you would already have your centering ring built in, and these would be very lightweight ontop of huge.

I could still work on both kits, but it was something I was thinking about.

Last edited by TravisR; 11-30-2008 at 09:00 AM.
TravisR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2008, 11:52 AM   #52
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
patsmx5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,797
Total Cats: 248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
I know there are alot of guys on here with 15's, but what do you think about an even larger rotor? Extra stopping power is proportional to the radius of the rotor with no upgrades to hydraulic system. So if you've got 16's, 17's or even 18's we could entertain larger options.

We could go all the way upto something around the Yukon size rotor with 13 inch.

That would give you about 44% more stopping performance over stock, better heat arrest for less fade, and those rotors are generally higher qaulity because they are rated for a larger vehicle. Think about it, 60-0 when stopping a miata at 1000kg you only have to bleed 391Kj of energy to stop. A Yukon loaded to the max combined towing and vehicle weight is rated at 5400 Kg. So it has to stop 1,992Kj. 5 Times the braking energy has to be absorbed by the rotors. So from the factory the rotors must be built for prolonged extreme temperatures for towing in mountains, and very high durability doing it to meet such a rating.

With that size I think the down side is that I would have to make a 4 lug center adapter. Nothing that large is going to magically fit in there. Depending on what I could get the rotors for I could maybe get those done for 80 dollars or so a piece. I've found them for 40 online, but I still have to machine the center hub. The upside is that you would already have your centering ring built in, and these would be very lightweight ontop of huge.

I could still work on both kits, but it was something I was thinking about.
Most would rather use 11" rotors w/ stock calipers. Going from 9" to 10" is well known to be a "great" mod. So going 10-11's has got to be pretty good too.

Getting into say, a 13" rotor, defeats the purpose of this in some regards. Simple, cheap, and easy is the goal. I mean, if someone wants the best, there are several BBK available that are actually lighter than the stock brakes by a good margin, have more clamping force, more rigid calipers that will better deal with the added heat, bigger rotors, etc. 11" corado rotors w/ stock calipers is oriented for the daily driven/occasional auto-x/quarter mile people. People that just want a nice upgrade for little cost. We'll use some after market brake pad and call it good. Maybe throw in a proportioning valve. Some people, like myself, don't really "need" bigger rotors as I never push my car to the point of overheating the factory rotors. I'd just like to have bigger brakes for the hell of it basically. Should make the middle pedal a little more sensitive and if I ever need to kill off a lot of speed fast, it will be less likely to fade on me.

I don't think too many would be interested in 13" rotors. Like you said, we could no longer run 20 dollars-and-bolt-right-up rotors. (with centering ring) You'll more than double the cost of this by using 13" rotors. And while they're a lot bigger, they will also be heavier, and have a larger mass moment of inertia. So while there may be a few people that would buy this stuff, your target audience will substantially shrink.
patsmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2008, 12:04 PM   #53
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 350
Total Cats: -2
Default

Yeah, if I was going to go with 13" rotors and make 17" wheels work, I'd put something together with StopTech parts. Keep it simple and light.
SolarYellow510 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2008, 01:16 PM   #54
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: South Florida
Posts: 491
Total Cats: -1
Default

Let us not forget that ultimately the tires are responsible for stopping the car. If we keep increasing the rotor diameter for stopping power, an increase in tire section width will also be required.

Tony
mrtonyg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2008, 01:57 PM   #55
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 350
Total Cats: -2
Default

What will really happen is they'll be trying to stop the car with the front tires alone. The Wilwood valve can only do so much to allow hydraulic pressure to reach the rear brakes. At some point, the front tires will lock early, the system will be hard to feel and modulate, and braking distances will increase. By increasing the share of braking work done with the front rotors, it puts that same increased share of thermal load into them, and undermines some of the benefit of having bigger brakes in the first place.

Balance is key.
SolarYellow510 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2008, 02:00 PM   #56
Elite Member
iTrader: (8)
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Dallas
Posts: 1,841
Total Cats: 0
Default

WhhhhhOW! Brake KITs! ARE CRAZY EXPENSIVE!

This is definately doing us a favor. Thanks guys.
Toddcod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2008, 02:08 PM   #57
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 350
Total Cats: -2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toddcod View Post
WhhhhhOW! Brake KITs! ARE CRAZY EXPENSIVE!
Only in our distorted perspective from DIY Miata land. If you're building a "real" race car (Koni Challenge, World Challenge, higher-level NASA and SCCA classes, etc.), a brake system from one of the big name manufacturers is among the least expensive systems on the car.
SolarYellow510 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2008, 04:26 PM   #58
Elite Member
iTrader: (13)
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Tigard, Oregon
Posts: 3,908
Total Cats: 0
Default

TravisR,

At some point you reach overkill. One thing to remember is the rotor and caliper are the dreaded and despised "unsprung weight". Miata's are very sensitive to added weight. Sure you could put a 13" rotor and 6 pot calipers in but all that extra weight is going to hurt handling and acceleration. The rotating mass of an overlarge rotor can significantly effect hp numbers on a dyno and performance on the street and track.

The reason people have been working with the Corrado rotor is it's the largest 4x100 bolt pattern rotor that is commonly available, about the right offset and cheap. The jump from a 9 or 10" rotor to the 11" is a pretty good gain without adding a ton of weight. It's all a balancing act. Gains vs. costs vs. losses.

A centering ring, Corrado rotor, stock caliper bracket set up could be a good gain for a reasonable price and without adding too much weight.
-
cueball1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2008, 08:08 PM   #59
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 267
Total Cats: 0
Default

Thank you for reading my mind, cueball1.
fahrvergnugen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2008, 11:21 PM   #60
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,583
Total Cats: 8
Default

Ok just throwing it out there. I couldn't imagine how rediculously cool a 13 inch caliper filling a 17inch wheel to the edge would look on a miata, but looks aren't everything.
TravisR is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Project Gemini - Turbo Civic on the Cheap Full_Tilt_Boogie Build Threads 58 Yesterday 10:04 PM
Noob to Miataturbo from MA JxPhan Meet and Greet 3 10-02-2015 03:17 AM
New M62 Miata owner Pist0n Meet and Greet 4 10-01-2015 09:18 PM
Walbro 255lph Fuel Pump $50 lsc224 Miata parts for sale/trade 2 10-01-2015 10:17 AM
Leaky Wilwoods mx592 Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 1 10-01-2015 01:45 AM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:02 PM.