SLAM IT BRO Large Roll Couples = bad4pussies High Roll Centers = INSIDE LIFT MORE BAD - Page 4 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain discuss the wondrous effects of boost and your miata...

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Old 06-18-2011, 06:07 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by tasty danish View Post
No. I tried to warn you. You just won't listen.
Trust me, it's not that I wouldn't like to provide concise accurate responses. It's just that a lot of these posts are newly formed ideas that I'm not entirely sure about so I end up posting the majority of my thought process which is an effective means of communicating to arrive at a correct, concise thought.

For example, instead of all the semi-complete thought process posts, I would now write something much more summarized:
(I think I finally have something worth reading, the length is actual information and not just rambling!)
Knowing that a tuned/calculated damping value exists for a spring&mass system, and that it is based on an amount of energy being transferred back and forth in a simple closed system of spring&mass, when an external force (being originally provided from the kinetic energy of the vehicle) acts on the sprung mass it changes the system and the amount of energy in the sprung mass is not originally accounted for in simple closed spring&mass, in order to reach a equilibrium where KE_sm=PE_spring in a timely, linear fashion that is not overdamped the amount of damping must be reduced. I believe most of this non-linearity is taken care of in the design of the damping valve though. However, because of the limits of the valve design, and the more effective response time of being underdamped for large forces of short duration, the high speed compression damping should be relatively low. Although, the harder the spring the more damping you will want because the higher spring-rate will absorb the same amount of energy with a shorter displacement. It's only in high speed compression damping where the "harder spring, less compression damping" myth is true because you need the responsiveness of being underdamped to prevent the bumps from upsetting the chassis. By lowering compression damping only at high speed from high forces/bumps you're lowering suspension pressure sum to work pretty much like a spring that's only soft when you need it to be (note the similarity of an effectively tuned suspension to an effectively operating *****, schmeh schmeh schmeh...., well minus the whole aspect of only being able to "act soft" for less than the duration/period of the oscillation frequency)
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Old 06-18-2011, 06:12 AM   #62
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I dont know that talking to people who have the time to think about it is quite the same as barking orders at privates on the battle field...

Dann
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Old 06-18-2011, 06:21 AM   #63
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Quoting op

"Although, the harder the spring the more damping you will want because the higher spring-rate will absorb the same amount of energy with a shorter displacement."

Its not about having low compression damping. you need the correct high speed compression damping to counter the unsprung mass on that corner, not to control the spring. This is my thoughts.

Dann

Last edited by nitrodann; 06-18-2011 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 06-18-2011, 06:38 AM   #64
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Jesus, four pages and not a single picture other than a weld a toddler could do?
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Old 06-18-2011, 06:55 AM   #65
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I like his weld, but a have a second hand 30 dollar welder.

Dann
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Old 06-18-2011, 11:18 AM   #66
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I dont know that talking to people who have the time to think about it is quite the same as barking orders at privates on the battle field...

Dann
Of course it's not the same, Dann. The example was given to refute Nick's assertion that concise dialog inherently lacks accuracy. Did you go to the same school as Nick?

Last edited by Thucydides; 06-18-2011 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 06-18-2011, 12:13 PM   #67
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It's only in high speed compression damping where the "harder spring, less compression damping" myth is true because you need the responsiveness of being underdamped to prevent the bumps from upsetting the chassis.
The 2nd half of the statement is true, the 1st half is never true, if you overlay two damper F-V curves, comparing one for a softer spring, and a 2nd, valved for a harder spring.
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Old 06-18-2011, 12:14 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
Its not about having low compression damping. you need the correct high speed compression damping to counter the unsprung mass on that corner, not to control the spring. This is my thoughts.

Dann
False. Both compression and rebound damping, act to damp both sprung and unsprung mass. Remember the unsprung mass motion that needs damping can be visualized as the wheel "dribbling" on the tire sidewall.

The reason for having softer high speed bump than high speed rebound is not due to different effects of sprung and unsprung masses.
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Old 06-18-2011, 12:30 PM   #69
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edited, fixed
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Old 06-18-2011, 01:03 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
The problem with soft springs + progressive bumpstops is this.
They get stiffer with compression, so in cornering, the outside springs don't compress as far, but the inside lifts more than if you had stiffer linear springs.
Jason, I'm not seeing what I quoted in bold. I would think a softer inside spring would extend less with the available load over it than a stiffer spring. What am I missing?
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Old 06-18-2011, 06:48 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
The 2nd half of the statement is true, the 1st half is never true, if you overlay two damper F-V curves, comparing one for a softer spring, and a 2nd, valved for a harder spring.
Sorry, I made it seem like "use less compression damping with the harder spring than the soft spring" when I really meant that you'd just want to use less high speed compression damping relative to low speed comp damping on a harder spring so that: (low speed comp damping of harder spring - high speed comp damping of harder) > (lscd of softer spring - hscd of softer spring) to the point where the difference in Q between the hard spring settings is larger than the difference in Q between between the soft spring setting or "harder spring, high speed compression should be comparatively more underdamped"
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Old 06-18-2011, 08:17 PM   #72
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This discussion is blowing my mind.
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Old 06-18-2011, 09:33 PM   #73
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rofl how many beads is on that plate? I like the one in the top right... looks like turd.
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Jesus, four pages and not a single picture other than a weld a toddler could do?
HEY! HEY! HEY-ter round up =P It was literally my first time welding aluminum. I played with it for about an hour, realized my gas flow was too high. Then I decided to ball my tungsten tip by switching to DCEP and arcing on some scrap. Forgot to switch the polarity back, was using a conservative "clean width" balance which is, during AC, your percentage of time in electrode positive that cleans the oxides off of the negatively charged work because by exposing the stable argon atom to an electron beam/arc you excite its valence electrons away from the nucleus enough to give it a positive charge so that it will strike the work with enough force to chip away the brittle oxide layer but it heats the electrode more so than it does the work. So, after melting my electrode..., I clipped the brittle tungsten with a wire cutter and re-ground... The arc would not stay put, because there was a fracture in the tungsten. Ground a new one, and immediately saw an acceptable weld bead.

Also, assuming he's got a self-adjusting machine or someone helping him with the controls, you should find that TIG'n toddler and get him into racing as he is exhibiting quite the refined development of his motor skills.
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Old 06-18-2011, 09:54 PM   #74
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Your an odd bloke mate. I like you, but you still are a little different.

Dann
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Old 06-19-2011, 11:15 AM   #75
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Nick, you seem to have a book of random facts stuffed away in your head and you have a MS3x..... so what is the standard map sensor is in the MS3, mpxh6400?

Also, I like kittens...
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Old 06-19-2011, 06:06 PM   #76
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Nick, you seem to have a book of random facts stuffed away in your head and you have a MS3x..... so what is the standard map sensor is in the MS3, mpxh6400?

Also, I like kittens...
I'll send you a pm about my clothing line for cats, we're introducing a petite kitten line this fall.

Unfortunately, I'm not that knowledgeable on the ms3 just yet. Once I take it out of the box and start playing with it, the obsession will yield motivation for reading binge. If you can't find your answer via Google, I might do some ms3 reading later. I'd usually just search something like that right now, but on phone and I'm about to clip in and dip out (bicycles counter the effects of binge drinking and waffle house)
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Old 06-19-2011, 07:35 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Thucydides View Post
Jason, I'm not seeing what I quoted in bold. I would think a softer inside spring would extend less with the available load over it than a stiffer spring. What am I missing?
delta_F = k*delta_x

For a change in load on a spring, the softer it is, the bigger its change in length.
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Old 06-20-2011, 12:06 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
delta_F = k*delta_x

For a change in load on a spring, the softer it is, the bigger its change in length.
Elementary, when you put it like that. Thanks.
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Old 06-20-2011, 09:26 AM   #79
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