SM moving to Penske, here come the cheap Bilsteins
 

https://www.mazdamotorsports.com/201...sion-evolving/

Those of you looking to build Bilstein setups for street cars are going to be very happy about this news.

Maybe you'll actually be able to get Bilsteins now.

Honestly, I want to try the Penske setup. Doesn't appear to be any more expensive than Bilsteins, question is what kind of shock setup and valving you get for the money?

By cheap you mean hopefully free? Or scrap price. SM shock takeoffs are going to be hhhaaaaammmmmeeerrrrrreeeddddd.

It's literally 2.5x more expensive than Bilsteins.

My friend has been picking up takeoffs for $25 an axle from a local racer. They have all been fine, other than the bushings being deformed.

Now if only my friend could stop crashing and needing replacements...

I guess at $50/set they'd be worth it as rebuildable/revalveable cores.

Where are you getting that number? Penskes are ~$200/corner. Additional $250 for top mount and bump stop kit or $1050 for full kit.

Bilsteins are $100/corner and don't require top hats. Ees maths, ees very nice.

Houw du? Nevermind. I actually read the announcement. Penskes still need the coilover bits and such.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...25d147b886.jpg

Derp, thought billies were a bit more than that. I doubt the penske must be run with the new spherical top hat, it just has to be run with it to be compliant in SM. Still 2x the cost, but for a budget track setup I'd take the properly valved shock over the billie all day.

Ya'all wild, and reading is hard. :rofl:

That price is for the SHOCKS.

I agree. But that "budget track setup" built around these Penskes puts you right into Xidas territory.

Yep. I read after posting like a tool and didn't edit fast enough. My bad.

Smooches.

As a xida owner I'm right there with you, but if someone is really pinching pennies and doesn't care about damping adjustment/hypercos/dual spring/etc, they could come in a little south of xidas. Splitting hairs at that point, but you know people will do it if given the chance.

I'd also have to see them.... i somewhat doubt they'll work with oem top hats. At least not as is. Pure speculation though.

Unlike the current Spec Miata shock, the Penske will be tamper-proof, and rebuildable through Penske at $100/shock.

-taken from an article from Racer website

I saw your post on Facebook Andrew, on the SM Drama man site. Love it when you tag those, hilarious reading. I was reading the one a few months ago about the horrible cheating everyone was doing at Sonoma, mainly with Haag motors. I was ironically racing with him that weekend (I think).

I would be interesting in seeing someone's impressions of basically a budget Bilstein setup except with the SM Penskes. Not worth it for me, as a MCS dealer I can just go that route nearly as easily...

Someone do it!

SMMD is up there with UPS Dogs as one of the best FB pages I follow.

If you look at an actual SM suspension kits for sale, they are $1500 with sways and end links. Even that spreadsheet picture shows them to be $1110 if you assemble the kit yourself. So $1050 for shocks without springs/sways/end links, but with bumps, hats, etc is right in the ballpark. I assume a part of the reason why is that while Penske shocks are 2x price of Bilstein for shock itself, it will not require sleeves/perches. So it ends up being close enough for a total setup cost. And Penske will probably be valved specifically to SM rates, so no re-valve job is needed to get the most out of them (at least in theory).

Going to be hard for other shocks in the 8-1500 range to compete with a $1k set of penskes, to be honest.

Interested to find out whether they're damping adjustable and what spring rates they're aiming at.

They've gone through some serious development (and will go thru more before they're released apparently): http://mazdamsports.staging.wpengine...s-Evolving.pdf

Which is bad news for Xida owners, really.

Reading through the PDF linked above - I can't wait to try them out. I'm sure these will be threaded bodies and for current spring rates, but should provide much better ride quality. $100 not including shipping for rebuild is not terrible either IF they last and work as well as Mazda claims they will.

I'll jump to them in a heartbeat if they are anything like they are made up to be.

That spreadsheet is NOT an SM suspension. It is not relevant for anything except determining how much more it will cost to build an equivalent street setup on Penskes, and the answer is "a chunk more."

Again, just to make sure this makes sense, your "budget" Penske setup is going to start with $1300 in shocks and hats. If that's something you want to play with, then sure go for it. MY point is that at that point, it's not "budget" in the context of our cars. That's "Xidas." That's not "competitor to budget Bilstein." Might be good anyways. Probably would be. Comparing them to Bilsteins in this regard is intellectually bankrupt though. Of course they'll be better. That comes with spending a lot more on shocks.

Lol why? These aren't the super pimpnasty Penskes...They aren't adjustable, they're probably not aluminum bodied (we'll see) and they're set up for SM, which isn't relevant to most Xidas users anyways. I'm sure they'll be sorta in the ballpark maybe sorta kinda, even my custom valved Bilsteins were IMO. But what sort of moron is going to cross shop "Well i can have this off the shelf" against "Well i can spend the same money and figure stuff out myself trying to make these non-adjustable shocks valved for a car that isn't set up like mine to hopefully match the off the shelf option?"

Not this moron. Maybe someone who has a weird vendetta against Emilio and won't stop posting about it.

SM spring rates are 700/325 IIRC. So these should be valved pretty well for 700/400 then, at least compared to Bilsteins.

I have no dog in this hunt, as I am one of those weirdos who drives on a Fox setup, but I do like dealing in facts, so...

According to the info we have so far, a complete set of shocks, stops, and hats costs $1050 shipped.

If the linked PDF in this thread is to be believed, they are aluminum bodies. What we do not know is whether they are threaded. If not, a sleeve kit ($120) obviously needs to be added to the price of the setup. That plus the cost of springs ($300) does indeed begin to approach Xida territory at a total cost of $1470 shipped. The ~$500 price difference will be a determining factor to some people, however.

That doesn't change the fact that the SM spring rates suck for everything except racing in SM.

700/400 is a decent street setup. :P There's been a bit of a spring rate arms race as of late. Even i'm on 900/500 with street tires.

I failed at dollars and i apologize.

Reading through the PDFs and other information present it states that what Penske brought to the table was equal in lap times to the current SM Bilstien setup (in qualifying and race lap times), but they will be revising and testing the valving more to improve the lap time. I don't see why the bodies wouldn't be threaded because that's all I've seen offered from them in the past.

If you're lazy and/or tend to forget to adjust your dampers at the track and want a non adjustable, high performance quality option, I could see making a good DIY setup from these. Not saying their better than XIDA or similar offerings, I just thing there its another good option. Especially if you have everything besides the Bilstiens laying around.

comparing a non adjustable shock to a Xida seems silly. since the Xida will more than likely outperform the Penski on a single setting, being able to adjust back to a comfortable street setting is a major bonus.

I have adjusted my shocks before/during the event exactly once. Ever since (and through multiple cars) once set, i don't touch them really. I bet this is the case for many people, this is also true for anyone rolling Bilsteins since they are not adjustable in the first place :rofl:. So getting non-adjustable setup for around $1,000 is not a huge deal. If the performance of Penske is better than Billies, then I don't see why anyone wouldn't go with them instead. After all, they will be valved specifically to the springs in question (unlike Bs) and fine tuned for racing Miatas. Really, I think this is a massive and positive step for SM and see only good things happening here.

Agree. Definitely great for SM. :)

Now the question is.... how many of us have SMs?

This might work for some people or for some shocks but this hasn't been my experience with my set-up which has 8300 Penskes. And of course the subjectiveness of "comfortable" is a rather wide range. Since I have proper spring rates, I don't have a whole lot in compression damping. And since said spring rates are kinda high for a comfy street ride, backing of rebound made the car floaty which I wouldn't call comfortable. Then add the Sadfab enchilada package, BFG 1.5 S tires, 3 piece front sway, etc. Yeah, ain't nuttin gonna make dat comftabow. So I don't make any adjustments for the ride home but then again, this is an autox set-up so maybe track set-ups will be different.

Now that ACE thing that 949 has where you can run super low spring rates I could see being close to comfortable when it needs to on the ride home and fast at the track.

Oh, and I don't *think* Penske makes a steel shock or one that doesn't have a threaded body.

1000/500 on xidas isn't plush by any means, but the difference between track settings and street settings is night and day. Low damping is a little floaty, but completely composed on the steet and much more comfy. Well worth it for a dual duty car. Would never want to be locked in at track damping.

I read on the SM forums that it'd be aluminum body, but not threaded. Will have to port sleeves over from billies. We'll find out soon enough.

Im sure SM Penske will be aluminum alloy as they listed current (Bilstein) shock as, and I'm paraphrasing here, - "made of steel and having poor heat dissipation capability". This indicated that the plan is to use a different metal for the body.

They are alum bodied.

Awesome! Buy now.

Chuckling at the Xida comparisons. The Penske's are $200 per bare shock, non adjustable and valved to have similar damping curves as the Bilsteins. No digressive pistons or sexy bits inside. If you can find Bilsteins, they, at $100 each new, are still a better deal.
Xidas are $375 each bare shock.

I'm curious to see final shock dynos, lengths and strokes. We offered custom steel shocks to SMAC at around the same price as the Penskes but heard nothing back.

Last couple years have shown a few good moves for the class, I can't wait to see how these new shocks perform.

Not sure if the SM8 tire is dropping next year as well, could be an interesting season.

You've had them on a dyno then, and know what's inside them, or are you just spouting off nonfacts as wishful thinking?

If you were paying attention you'd have seen he was asked to bid on being a supplier for the new shocks. This would have included design parameters.

Read more, snark less.

This seems like another incredibly short-sighted decision for Spec Miata. Basically every new spec series in recent history has learned from SM and went with a quality, adjustable coilover.

Do they really think they are getting a top end Penske shock for $200 / corner? They're more like Penske Lite. You couldn't buy a non-adjustable shock from them for less than about $500 per corner(without coilover hardware), so what on earth are they doing to cut the price by 250%?

Furthermore, why are they so concerned about running dirt cheap shocks when the greatest expenditure by far are the SM7's?
This really makes me wish Supermiata came out East; it makes so much sense compared to SM...

Yeah, I'm still stuck on the claim that qualifying lap times were similar to the Bilsteins, but they don't fade as much. They couldn't manage to turn faster laps on "better" shocks? What? It sounds to me like they are not trying to build a better suspension--just a more available one.

Its availability was running short, it makes perfect sense that they were entertaining alternatives. The shocks didn't have to be better, they just all needed to be the same and available. Better is just a bonus, if achieved.

Ditto the plea for super Miata out east. I race spec because it's the only Miata series in the north east that has consistent fields of 10+. I could race PT (now ST) and have a better car, but race against myself or one other guy who is 4 seconds off my pace. No thanks.

These new shocks are fine I guess, but I'd honestly rather have seen a simple move to 15x8 or 9 wheels. I'm also tired of battling it out for 3rd because drivers 1 and 2 have $6k engine builds and make 5 more hp than me. I'll happily make 3 Dyno pulls and be allowed to drop a little weight.

The SM Penske as I understand it, is not a threaded body. I presume that was done so current Bilstein owners could swap their Ground Control sleeves and Eibach springs over to reduce overall upgrade costs. So not cooler running than a threaded body without the air gap/ insulating sleeve. All indications currently are that the valving was at least similar, if not based directly on the Bilstein. I have not read or heard any references to the Penske being shorter than the Bilstein. Until I can get my hands on the set and measure the body length and stroke we will assume they are the same. We are in line to get a set. We plan to send them off to be dynoed. We will share that information when we obtain it.

Aluminum body with aluminum sleeve running cooler than steel body with aluminum sleeve. Pretty obvious. Al body with al sleeve not running as cool as threaded al body and no sleeve. Equally obvious.

How many sets of wheels you think the SM community collectively would have to purchase if they changed sizes, that'd be a metric fuck ton of wheels. I don't wanna have to buy 3 new sets.

But I do agree that Supermiata needs to spread, I'd jump ship in a second if we could have a 10+ car field.

Off topic: WRL is trying to get an East Coast Series going. Marcus setup a Facebook group (SuperMiata East Coast Support Group) to start bringing a list of racers together. Contact WRL (race@RaceWRL.com) and let them know you want a race in your area. Tell your friends to contact them as well.

Not sure why all the hate before the product is even finalized, not even released. No one is forcing Bilstein to stop making their shocks for Miata and anyone who wants them can still do custom coil-overs. If anything, we get more options with Penske. There is a potential for something good happening here, but people go on bashing product that hasn't even gone to production yet.

I really seems that the spirit of the forum is that of a really old grumpy guy putting up signs telling kids to get off his lawn before any kids have moved into the neighborhood. Cheer up folks, life is good.

What hate are you seeing? I'm not sure we're reading the same thread. :party:

Mazda just announced that the Penske/integrated threaded collars are available. $1200 for the set and you still need to spend $250 to the tops.
Link: Mazda Announcement
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c134095db7.png
Highlights:
- One coil-over shock (shock valving is the same as previous version)
- Coil-over thread protector (new addition)
- Threaded adjuster (new addition)
- Friction lock (new addition)

Details:

• Eliminated a separate coil-over sleeve to integrate it into the shock in order to 1) eliminate the spring contact/wear on expensive components and 2) improve heat dissipation:
  • Reduced wear. The new coil-over shock allows for the proper amount of clearance between the spring and more expensive aluminum components. Because the ride height adjustment threads are machined directly on the shock body, there is increased clearance to the spring. The spring is also properly guided by a plastic component, which is more typical in motorsports. The slippery plastic component is meant to properly guide the spring coils as the suspension compresses. This smooth operation reduces wear and provides smoother spring operation for better performance.
  • Improved heat dissipation. The elimination of a secondary threaded ride height collar covering the body of the Penske shock allows for better heat dissipation. The extra thick aluminum collar is like wearing a winter coat in the summertime, increasing running temperatures, and potentially causing the shock oil to break down faster. More consistent performance and longevity should result from the more efficient design.

• Integrated a new ride height adjustment system to offer more accurate ride height adjustment:

•  
  • The new, integrated ride height coil-over system provides a more positive, accuratemethod of adjustment. The first version by Penske Racing Shocks (i.e. the two-piece collar system) allows for the potential of ride height adjustment error as there was potential for the collar to rotate during adjustment. The integrated coil-over system is standard in motorsports because every turn of the ride height adjuster results in an accurate, repeatable spring preload. Pervious adjustment equaled 0.125” of vertical movement per turn; the new coil-over system in 0.100” per turn.

• Added self-locking hardware to remove the complication and hassle of locking screws:
• The included Penske ride height adjusters include tool-free locking features to simplify adjustments. Adjusting ride height has been made easier by quickly unlocking and re-locking the adjuster without tools.