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Old 08-09-2011, 10:19 AM   #21
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I agree with CG, those upper mounts are designed for what you are after, that's why I asked why you'd use them. You have the NB upper mounts, so you just need sleeves. Refer to the part numbers I gave you.

With that being said, that plastic upper spring seat is not nessecary. Hell you could pretty much just glue those Koni 2.25 to 2.5" adapter plates up there if you really cares, or mill them out of a cutting board or alike.

As far as the spring rates? I dunno they have hundreds of springs that you can make work. The skys the limit. But you also need to start saying F/R rates, not R/F, we don't have FWD cars here, stiffer spring goes in the front.


Honestly, I'd just order the spring kit from FM, they are a vendor and the 425/300 rate is very common and plays well with konis. It's possible the FM would be able to order them with different spring rates. I haven't had luck finding just those GC sleeves to purchase seperately.

I'd still have your blown shock looked at. You can have Koni send you a new shock first, through an RMA, and then send your bad shock out to them.
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Old 08-09-2011, 11:25 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
..................
Still at $140 with sleeves alone, you'd need to find $60ea springs to make it worth the cost of just getting the GC kit.
I think GC is my best bet, also the best bang for buck as they include Eibach springs that are expensive to buy separately. I am thinking of making nylon or alloy adaptors to get a rigid fix instead of O-rings or the motorbike spacer to fit the sleeves to the shock. But that is not the worst part, just enhancements. I was just let down with the GC customer support, don't know why. Now I have seen these pics of GC's in NB mounts I think it can be done without to much trouble.

Haven't bought from FM yet, but they have some more goodies I wan't to have. They also told me to be willing to ship to Europe.
I am going to buy the GC's. Maybe FM will recommend me a spring rate (sorry for confusing the F/R - R/F, lol) or I'll go with the supplied ones. I feel those springs would be too short and for little more I have sleeves + Eibachs. And I am a little done with pulling the shocks to adjust them over and over again.

Just one more thing: order the NA or NB GC's ?
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Old 08-09-2011, 11:30 AM   #23
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they honestly might be a little short. IIRC it's a 6" F and 7" rear spring. You might want to email or call FM and see what they recommend, as a 7" 250 rear spring would have been too short for me. The NB kit might be slightly longer springs.
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Old 08-09-2011, 12:01 PM   #24
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Thanks. I have asked them. They might read along as I have sent them this link.

Now this:

WTF....

I like this:

I can make that. Would like that on both sides of the sleeve.

I do not like this at all...


I do like the idea of a bigger diameter coil.

Would the GC on the Miata keep the springs seated on full droop ? If not, it would not be road-legal here.

Thanks for all the support Braineack !
FM is on Summer camp. Err...

I think this is why GC is letting me down on the topmount:



Properly centering the spring and sleeve cannot be a bad thing....
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Springs for Koni and FCM-dsc03884q.jpg   Springs for Koni and FCM-5vv0dbzz8hgw6kt89a6.jpg  
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Old 08-09-2011, 12:34 PM   #25
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no, I think the problem there is the guy was still using the lower mount, so the sleeve sat up higher than it needed to. Plus using a collar that was wider than needed. The GC sleeve should rest directly on the shock circlip, so it will sit a lot further down. It was also installed upside down, the .5" area of non-threads should be towards the top.

Also, there should be material stuffed between the shock and sleeve to keep it centered like I stated before. But you can see the Koni sleeve is smaller diameter so it should fit snug.


As far as the springs being unseated, that's all about choosing the correct length of spring.


what in the second pic are you saying you like?

if you want to use larger springs, just make buy those koni adpater rings, or make your own, you just need a flange with a wider OD to fit on the lock ring that will kepe the spring centered.
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Old 08-09-2011, 12:54 PM   #26
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I like that alloy adaptor to get the thicker sleeve on the Koni.
FM is not there for a week, GC does not wan't to talk to me again, I guess I will just have to wait before I can spend anything on this car....
I was just curios what diameter sleeve you would get if you order them for Koni. Will you get the larger ones with the 2,5" springs and some adaptor to make it fit, or do you get the narrow ones for Koni with the 2.25" springs....

Anyway, I have it all just about figured out now. The difficulty now is to get the parts, lol.


Here is some text FM put on their website for the GC's:
NOTE: Koni and KYB kits are 375lb/in F, 250 lb/in R spring rates.
That is pretty close to my initial thoughts. I can go with that.
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Old 08-09-2011, 01:03 PM   #27
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Quote:
I have the same thing. Koni Ground Control sleeves with 2.5" 7" eibach springs.
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Old 08-09-2011, 01:05 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHI View Post
I like that alloy adaptor to get the thicker sleeve on the Koni.
that's just the koni NB lower perch mount thing. that have nothing to do with the springs.

oh i see what you're saying.

I'd use the thinner sleeve and get the koni 2.25" to 2.5" adpaters and rest them on the lock nut. they are like $3 each. honestly there is more selection with the eibach 2.25" springs. can you just purchase the sleeves seperately? I could never find them.
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Old 08-09-2011, 01:55 PM   #29
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I found a topic somewere that GC would ship sleeves for $119 shipped to the lower 48.

I think FM and GC are selling the smaller diameter sleeve for the 2.25 spring. Selling the 2.25 springs with the 375/250 rating along. Now that would be fine. If the springs are no good I could swap to 2.5" springs with those koni adaptors (from summit).

I'll just wait for an answer from either FM or GC.
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Old 08-09-2011, 05:50 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soviet View Post
I have the same thing. Koni Ground Control sleeves with 2.5" 7" eibach springs.
Do you know why it occured?
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Old 08-10-2011, 03:04 AM   #31
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GC got back on me:

They use the smaller sleeve for the Koni's, together with the 2,5" springs.
Mark says the +99 springs are shorter, the +90 are the longer ones.
I can choose the springrate but 375/250 is a populair (soft) choice. Sounds good to me.
I like his answers.
I think I have to specify the length of the spring to get it right.
Recommendations?
Braineack, you have F/R 6"/7" that is on the short side, i should go with 7"/8" or 6"/8"?
I do like an even leveled car (not the nose down, rear up). Ride height will be 13"
If I mess up with the spring length, I could make a new higher or lower perch slot.

I have measured the ride height: it is 13" spot on. It gives me the same height on the front as the rear. People tell me it is better to get the car flat or rear a little down as it enhances the roll center of the car. Does this count for the Miata too ?
If I have more info on the spring length's I can order the GC's. No doubt that I will make some nice adaptors for the top seating of the spring. I don't wan't the perch to look like the previous pics, harmless or not...

I do like to videotape the wheels wile driving. This would give me good information about what the suspension does. I will ask Koni to replace the damper that leaked.

Why does a shorter spring binds quicker then a longer spring ?

Last edited by IHI; 08-10-2011 at 12:20 PM.
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Old 08-10-2011, 05:14 PM   #32
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This "Mark" guy of GC is impossible. I asked him a couple of questions like a shipping quote, if I could get 8" rear springs, etcetera. Also I asked how the sleeves got worn out by the spring as in the pics I found.

All he answered was:

"The damaged sleeves are caused by stupid design upper mounts, and using overpriced bumpstops without even checking the rate."

I don't think he will actually let me buy parts from him. Either not a nice guy or has a lot on his mind, I just don't know. I'll have to wait till FM's Camp is over.
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Old 08-10-2011, 05:51 PM   #33
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this dude knows nothing.
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Old 08-10-2011, 06:51 PM   #34
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GC customer service is renowned for being less than great and it was a motivating factor in me buying Koni sleeves and used springs and piecing it together myself. Blaming it on the bump stops? Really? I can see how not having anything to center the spring on the upper mount may be a problem, especially if the GC sleeves come right up to the top of the shock body. The Koni sleeves don't, which may help keep them out of harm's way if the spring flexes a little bit laterally. My setup has no issues with rubbing.



I use a urethane upper spring isolator for my 2.5" springs with FCM (NB style) upper mounts. Energy Suspension part number 9.6103G. Little bit of Gorilla Glue to hold it onto the shock mount. The isolator will cut down on NVH and also keep the spring from moving around very much when the suspension is unloaded, which may or may not be an issue depending on your spring length and ride height.
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Old 08-11-2011, 02:20 AM   #35
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Looks very clean. However, Koni sleeveset costs $80 per corner? Or are these prices for 4 corners ? That is about the same you pay for GC + springs. But this "Mark" guy is opening up all options again.

What springrates, ride height and spring lenghth are you using? Do you have any advise on this?

If the $80 is for 4 corners, I would have to add 4x $6 for the 2,25"-->2,5" spings and 2x $7 (sold per pair, need 4).
Also I need springs, those are $80, need 4, totals at $320
All together it gets up to:
80+24+14+320 = $438 for the Koni / Eibach / ES combo

Slightly more then the GC, but that won't let me down.

If I'd use QA1 springs, the 2,5"/250/7" and a 2,5"/350/7"would cost me $40 each.
That makes 160 for the springs, total would be $280 for the Koni / QA1 / ES combo.
The downside on this is there are less available sizes for the QA1's, if you wan't a 8" spring you pay $60 and 6" is unavailable.

Summit's own springs are even cheaper, $35 each, but availability is only good in 7".

As the springs are the weak component in my suspension at the moment, I am not willing to go cheap here. I have set my mind on Eibachs.

The only thing I need to figure out is the length of the spring.

Now, my car is at the right height. The coilovers start just a little higher then the perch is.

Rear coil:
From topmount to lowest spring perch I have 17cm / 6.7 inches
Weight of the car is 2000Lbs-2200Lbs.
The Miata has a 50:50 ratio.
That would make the spring compress with 500-550 Lbs.
If I rate the spring at 250 in the rear, it would compress 2-3 inch.
If I wan't to get to the right ride height I would have to get springs that are in the middle of the perch at 13" ride height, the Koni's are 4" but only 3" is usable. So I need to get 1,5" off the 6,7", makes 5,2".
If the spring compresses 2 inch, I would need a 7". If it compresses 3", I would need a 8". I think both will do.
I can see 7" being on the short side.


Front coil:
From topmount to lowest spring perch I have 18cm / 7 inches
Weight of the car is 2000Lbs-2200Lbs.
The Miata has a 50:50 ratio.
That would make the spring compress with 500-550 Lbs.
If I rate the spring at 375 in the front, it would compress ~1,5 inch.
If I wan't to get to the right ride height I would have to get springs that are in the middle of the perch at 13" ride height, again the Koni's are 4" but only 3" is usable. So I need to get 1,5" off the 7", makes 5,5".
If the spring compresses 1,5 inch-2 inch, I could use a 7". I think a 6" would be to small.

Anyway, If it turns out to be to tall, I can always make another slot for the perch-clip.

Also a longer spring keeps me better from coil-binding ? I think this is what I have in the rear. The coils are very close to each other. The coils wire is ~10mm thick, the space between the coil-wires is ~7mm, the front is slightly better, 10mm between the windings. If they are regressive in spring rate due to age or design, this would cause my initial problems.

By the way, the Koni springs from the kit are 10,5" in front and 12" in the rear. I cannot use those as the lower the car too much, bringing it to ~11,5-12" in the front. The rear seems to be fine. But can't cross a bridge, speedbumps without hitting the framerails and I even have hit the subframe twice. It is just plain stipid. These coils aren't made for the FCM / NB topmounts though. But clearly their springrate is near stock if they compress from 10,5 to ~6,5" = 4" When pressed with 550 Lbs per spring they are less then 140 lbs/inch ?
For the rear that would be 12" to 6,5" = 5,5" When compressed with 550 Lbs per spring this makes... 100lbs/inch..
This does make sense. The Koni springs felt super stiff. But probably because the car was on all its bumps all the time. In fact... there was barely any suspension travel going on.

The more I think of it, the clearer it gets. When you lower the car you should compensate with spring rate or you will end up on the bumpstop. If you upgrade your shocks, you will need stiffer springs to overcome the added rebound or the car will jack down a lot (Koni's are "famous" for doing that). The only thing I cannot understand is that people advice to go on stock springs with Koni's and FCM topmounts and set their ride height at 13". There is no way this is going to work out fine at all. Maybe on a flat road, but a more bumpy road will get the car on its bumps and the springs cannot overcome the rebound fast enough, making the car stiff and giving the suspension a strange double behavior (from weak to very stiff). Correct me if I am wrong. But I also have to say that I am very sensitive on chassis behavior. If I drive a car for the first time I always pay attention on how good (or bad) the steering is, how it is planted on the road, what it does on long and short bumps in the road. The Miata is not there where I wan't it yet.

Please feedback !

Last edited by IHI; 08-11-2011 at 07:54 AM.
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Old 08-11-2011, 12:42 PM   #36
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^^^I only read the first 10% of that novel of yours.

No the Koni sleeves are not $80 a corner. Don't know where you saw that price, but shop around. King Motorsports has the sleeve, lower perch, and 2.5" adapter for $45.80 a corner which is about what I paid 2-3 years ago. Yeah, that's about $180 but where the real savings comes from is buying used springs. 7" 450 lb QA1s for $35 shipped (for the pair) and 7" 300 lb Eibachs were about $50 for the pair. Ebay and the sccaforums classifieds are good sources for used springs. The Energy upper isolators I posted about before were about $20 for the 4. That's under $300 total.

My ride height averages around 12.5" to the fenders. It was corner balanced with my ballast in the car so there's a little variation among the corners when I measure it empty. Can't go much lower and still clear speed bumps.
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Old 08-11-2011, 12:51 PM   #37
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That's ok. Lol... Just one slight problem.. I am in Europe. Shipping will be $120 per package... So shopping around for used stuff may turn out to be more expensive then finding one company that is able to sell me all the parts in one box.
Koni sleeves gets more expensive after all. Darn...
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Old 08-15-2011, 09:23 AM   #38
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As GC never responded back on me I decided to configure my own Eibach / Koni coilover sleeveset based on reveived info in this topic and on the www. Ordered at Summit. Should be packed and sent on 31 august. Will install it this winter. I'll post some updates in this topic.
Thanks for all the support folks !
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Old 10-27-2011, 08:01 PM   #39
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btw, for anyone who randomly finds this thread, you can buy the 2.25" koni sleeves from many honda parts sellers online for $44.

Scroll to the bottom (even has the 2.5" adapter for cheap):
http://www.kingmotorsports.com/m-26-...aspx?pagenum=2
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Old 10-28-2011, 03:06 PM   #40
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Thanks. I got a set of sleeves ans eibach springs from Summit.
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