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Old 05-28-2009, 04:22 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
Yeah ultimately that is the answer. Just try it and see. It is easy to disconnect it and zip-tie it out of the way. If you like it, it is also easy to remove.
I've gone back and forth with rear sway through 3 different suspension setups (about to try fourth). Right now I have it on just for a level of protection for 6" rear...rather oversteer than blow it right now.

I think when I do Konis with stiffer springs next month I will finally take it off for good. It was surprising just how long the rear would stay glued when N/A without rear sway. With turbo oversteer always comes first, I'm just trying to find out now if the bar makes it more predictable or not.
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Old 05-28-2009, 04:47 PM   #22
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I still question this no rear sway..... I have yet to run without one.
I thought all the AutoX'ers did this to get the car to rotate easier, which then becomes...well "not" nuetral.
Wouldn't removing the rear sway have the exact opposite effect on a Miata? Unless I miss understand your meaning of rotate. Take off that rear bar and the car is going to shift it's balance from oversteer to understeer. I noticed a significant difference when I went from the solid RB bar to the hollow, the car had much more tendency to push.

A car being neutral depends on a lot of factors, so in fact removing the rear bar could make the car more neutral, which would follow in a RWD. I personally like having front and rear bars.

Swaybars are good for fine tuning, not so much as a solution to a problem.
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Old 05-28-2009, 05:44 PM   #23
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Swaybars are good for fine tuning, not so much as a solution to a problem.
sway bars play pretty significant role in suspension so i dont know how you would use it for fine tuning. changing alignment, tire pressure, and adjusting shock settings is fine tuning in my opinion.

hustler: you should also check with more knowledgeable people about your alignment. you are running more camber in rear then front which is not exactly a good thing for miata with its dynamic rear camber (camber changes during turn) so you have barely enough grip in rear during turns. here is an example of dynamic miata camber on my previous car:



thats -2.2 degrees front and -1.8 degrees rear. see how in this picture rear camber is WAY more then -1.8? dynamic camber


ps: look at inner rear wheel, not outer.

Last edited by UrbanSoot; 05-28-2009 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:59 PM   #24
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what's the range of settings on your tein flex? i would raise the shock settings. i would say rear only, but it might change to oversteer if you don't raise the front also. (or try them at the same level) by raising the rear shocks stiffness, it might help to keep from transferring as much weight to the rear under acceleration while cornering.

also wonder why your running more camber in rear than frt.? i run 1.7 frt. 1.2 rear
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Old 05-29-2009, 02:21 AM   #25
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I have door bars in my daily driver. You get used to it, not that big a deal IMO.
Are you worried at all about side impacts with the door bars? Thats the only thing keeping me from doing them. A side impact looks like it would ram that bar into your hip, probably shatter your pelvis and leg and what ever other damage in that area it could cause. I've never seen any in person though, so I can't really say anything about how you fit into the car with them.
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Old 05-29-2009, 03:39 AM   #26
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I'm not sure about turbo miatas, but for spec miatas, a good alignment for r888s is about -2.7 front camber, 1/16 out front toe, -3.3 rear camber, and rear toe depends on the track. For RA-1s, same but -3.0 front camber and -3.5 rear camber.

Hustler, why are you only able to get -1.7 out of your front? Something isn't right there... either the guy who aligned your car doesn't know what they are doing, or you have a bent control arm or subframe, or a bad lower ball joint.
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Old 05-29-2009, 04:04 AM   #27
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a local shop just finished building spec miata and they could only get -1.8 degrees up front too. doesnt go further. i guess it has something to do with bushings perhaps...
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Old 05-29-2009, 04:13 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by UrbanSoot View Post
a local shop just finished building spec miata and they could only get -1.8 degrees up front too. doesnt go further. i guess it has something to do with bushings perhaps...
All it has to do with is one (or multiple) of the following:
Bent upper or lower control arm
Bent subframe
Bad lower ball joint

It's also possible it's bushings, but unlikely. Just as likely that it is because the entire car is tweaked.

If they built it and didn't address that issue, that's a shitty shop and I'd never bring my car there.
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Old 05-29-2009, 10:23 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by jayc72 View Post
Wouldn't removing the rear sway have the exact opposite effect on a Miata? Unless I miss understand your meaning of rotate. Take off that rear bar and the car is going to shift it's balance from oversteer to understeer. I noticed a significant difference when I went from the solid RB bar to the hollow, the car had much more tendency to push.

A car being neutral depends on a lot of factors, so in fact removing the rear bar could make the car more neutral, which would follow in a RWD. I personally like having front and rear bars.

Swaybars are good for fine tuning, not so much as a solution to a problem.
That's what's hard for me to decifer.... my car is so stiff now, that it already has a wee bit of understeer when setting for a turn, even with the over sized rear bar. I'll just have to do some testing I guess.
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Old 05-29-2009, 10:26 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by UrbanSoot View Post
a local shop just finished building spec miata and they could only get -1.8 degrees up front too. doesnt go further. i guess it has something to do with bushings perhaps...
I does have something to with the bushings a bit..... we can usually get a bit more camber when upgrading to the polypro bushings.
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Old 05-29-2009, 01:08 PM   #31
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I does have something to with the bushings a bit..... we can usually get a bit more camber when upgrading to the polypro bushings.
You aren't allowed to in SM.... and any decent car out there has at least -2.5 camber on each side.
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Old 05-29-2009, 03:06 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by NA6C-Guy View Post
Are you worried at all about side impacts with the door bars? Thats the only thing keeping me from doing them. A side impact looks like it would ram that bar into your hip, probably shatter your pelvis and leg and what ever other damage in that area it could cause. I've never seen any in person though, so I can't really say anything about how you fit into the car with them.
Yeah after reading up on it that seems to be the biggest debate point, especially on m.n. I think some modest padding on the part of the bar next to one's hip would take care of it. Some fixed back race seats would take care of it too since it is low relative to hip position (at the area near the seat back hinge); a race bucket would cover the bar.

Another problem, though only cosmetic, is there is some minor wear visible where my shoes sometimes scrape the bar getting in and out, and where the seat belt buckle gets caught between the bar and the door (sticking retractor). Also, it is entertaining watching passengers not used to the door bars get in and out of the car, especially larger passengers.
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Old 05-29-2009, 03:18 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
Yeah after reading up on it that seems to be the biggest debate point, especially on m.n. I think some modest padding on the part of the bar next to one's hip would take care of it. Some fixed back race seats would take care of it too since it is low relative to hip position (at the area near the seat back hinge); a race bucket would cover the bar.

Another problem, though only cosmetic, is there is some minor wear visible where my shoes sometimes scrape the bar getting in and out, and where the seat belt buckle gets caught between the bar and the door (sticking retractor). Also, it is entertaining watching passengers not used to the door bars get in and out of the car, especially larger passengers.
I'm also worried about the bar pushing the lower side bolsters of the seat up and making me sit crooked. I guess a narrow race seat would be ideal with door bars. Just doesn't look like any room down there for a 1 1/2'' bar (plus padding preferred). What seats are you running?

And its also not that the entire door caving in on a side impact is preferred either. I would imagine a side impact from an SUV would feel like a huge wave coming for you. Top edge of the front would be above the roof of our little cars, so it would pretty much crush the entire side. At least maybe the door bar would reduce intrusion, but your day would still suck *****.
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Old 05-29-2009, 03:21 PM   #34
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You aren't allowed to in SM.... and any decent car out there has at least -2.5 camber on each side.
He He..... Yeah, I know..... I've already made the decision in the build that this is no "spec" car anymore.
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Old 05-29-2009, 03:24 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by crashnscar View Post
All it has to do with is one (or multiple) of the following:
Bent upper or lower control arm
Bent subframe
Bad lower ball joint

It's also possible it's bushings, but unlikely. Just as likely that it is because the entire car is tweaked.

If they built it and didn't address that issue, that's a shitty shop and I'd never bring my car there.
everything is straight on that car. all suspension components are brand new.
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Old 05-29-2009, 04:01 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by NA6C-Guy View Post
I'm also worried about the bar pushing the lower side bolsters of the seat up and making me sit crooked. I guess a narrow race seat would be ideal with door bars. Just doesn't look like any room down there for a 1 1/2'' bar (plus padding preferred). What seats are you running?

And its also not that the entire door caving in on a side impact is preferred either. I would imagine a side impact from an SUV would feel like a huge wave coming for you. Top edge of the front would be above the roof of our little cars, so it would pretty much crush the entire side. At least maybe the door bar would reduce intrusion, but your day would still suck *****.
Right now I have the stock seats in the car and the bar does not push in the side bolsters, though it is a close fit. It basically just fits between the seat and the door panel. The seat will also no longer slide all the way forward, though I am 5'7", 30" inseam, and it is not an issue. I have been meaning to ask Hard Dog about aftermarket seats with the door bars.

Yeah either way a side impact that bad is going to be a big pain in the butt, and the side, and a big headache (puns intended). Though there is already a smaller bar for it incorporated into the door, side intrusion is an argument for the door bar. Though really an SUV bumper is so high it is going to be coming at you at chest or even head level.
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