Time to break out the wallet for new coilovers- Feal 441 Race"custom", or Xida Race..
02-19-2019, 01:42 PM
#21
The multipiece cartridge designs are all missing a lot of rear stroke compared to a fixed length shock. That is a problem across the board. The lower cup stack height, the air gap between the lower cup and damper cartridge, and the height of the lower control arm mounting "foot" on the lower mounting cup all take from available rear stroke. That is an inherent flaw with all multipiece shocks.
Xida Race have more bump travel available than anything on your list. This is a very unique and specific design criteria of the Xida Race. This allows them to ride better, while lower, than anything on your list, as well as absorb curb hits on track better, while lower. A custom diy billy setup can mimic this with extended top hats and custom upper hardware and bump stops and know-how and trickery, but Xida are a click away.
The usable range of rear ride height on the Ohlins specifically is very narrow, and fairly well documented across the forums. They need to be up high to not bottom, but they are very short stroke so they also top out easily if too high. Ohlins makes a great damper, but the multipiece design of the coilover as whole really handicaps them, and all of the multipiece variants for this chassis application. We've gotten pretty specific about the workable height ranges now that we have Xida Race and Xida XL variants.
On Xidas, the helper spring is there primarily for droop travel when the main spring rate is high enough to prevent much static compression of the springs, which is very often when talking about 500+lb main rates. If your car is heavy, main springs soft, and/or you're not very low, then you might have the helpers at block height most of the time. Most streetcars are like this. Meanwhile, ALL of our race cars have the front helpers and mains in negative preload at full droop. This means that the vast majority of track/race cars see a major benefit from helpers. There could be a graph made to show a range of corner weights, ride heights and spring rates that end up with helpers in block, but aint nobody got time for that. Helpers are beneficial in numerous ways. If your springs are loose at droop on jackstands, then your springs are loose crossing railroad tracks, manhole covers, freeway expansions, racetrack curbs, etc.. Loose springs means no spring force keeping your tire in contact with the ground. There is a ride quality component a performance component.
Xida Race have more bump travel available than anything on your list. This is a very unique and specific design criteria of the Xida Race. This allows them to ride better, while lower, than anything on your list, as well as absorb curb hits on track better, while lower. A custom diy billy setup can mimic this with extended top hats and custom upper hardware and bump stops and know-how and trickery, but Xida are a click away.
The usable range of rear ride height on the Ohlins specifically is very narrow, and fairly well documented across the forums. They need to be up high to not bottom, but they are very short stroke so they also top out easily if too high. Ohlins makes a great damper, but the multipiece design of the coilover as whole really handicaps them, and all of the multipiece variants for this chassis application. We've gotten pretty specific about the workable height ranges now that we have Xida Race and Xida XL variants.
On Xidas, the helper spring is there primarily for droop travel when the main spring rate is high enough to prevent much static compression of the springs, which is very often when talking about 500+lb main rates. If your car is heavy, main springs soft, and/or you're not very low, then you might have the helpers at block height most of the time. Most streetcars are like this. Meanwhile, ALL of our race cars have the front helpers and mains in negative preload at full droop. This means that the vast majority of track/race cars see a major benefit from helpers. There could be a graph made to show a range of corner weights, ride heights and spring rates that end up with helpers in block, but aint nobody got time for that. Helpers are beneficial in numerous ways. If your springs are loose at droop on jackstands, then your springs are loose crossing railroad tracks, manhole covers, freeway expansions, racetrack curbs, etc.. Loose springs means no spring force keeping your tire in contact with the ground. There is a ride quality component a performance component.
Ehhhhhh, but no, they're not.
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02-19-2019, 02:09 PM
#22
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So it's time to Upgreyedd the springy things under the MSM. Long story short, after all the years I had with the GWR 'race valved' Ohlins DFVs (12k/8k), I think I got a little spoiled, I loved them....even driving most of the time with the dampening cranked up to full stiff. However, $2900+ isn't in the budget....and probably won'y be for a very long time. The MSM got an aftermarket upgrade from one of the Big Name companies several years ago. This was done knowing that what was going on wasn't "the best", but is far from a lot of the junk out there, as the car wasn't being driven very hard or anything like that. Now that I own the car, I can out-drive the suspension very quickly....it's simply too soft....the front springs are barely 50in/lb heavier than the rears of the DFVs.
The Feal 441+ Road Race looks to fit the balance of price point and performance. Think I'm about to pull the trigger and order them with 14k/8k springs. Any solid reasoning I should consider anything else? Others seem to add extra cost for extended tophats, or helper springs, or other small upgrades that seem standard on the 441+s.
FWIW- I'm happy with the car's ride height of 4.25"f/4.75"r and plan on keeping it there.
The Feal 441+ Road Race looks to fit the balance of price point and performance. Think I'm about to pull the trigger and order them with 14k/8k springs. Any solid reasoning I should consider anything else? Others seem to add extra cost for extended tophats, or helper springs, or other small upgrades that seem standard on the 441+s.
FWIW- I'm happy with the car's ride height of 4.25"f/4.75"r and plan on keeping it there.
I'll leave those better educated than me to discuss the mertis of them as a product, but with Odi's rep, i'd venture to trust the stuff he puts out.
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02-19-2019, 02:22 PM
#23
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Currently running the 441+'s with Swift 9k front 6k rear springs on my MSM. No helper springs on mine. I had to clearance the NB2 arms up front to fit the shock assembly in without the locking collar hitting the reinforcement. Also, the ABS brackets they ship with don't quite line up with the MSM ABS lines. Lastly, the locking collars on the front sit right under the upper control arm, which makes it a pain to get a spanner wrench in there and adjust. Rears are easy to adjust however. They ship already with extended rear tophats.
I'll leave those better educated than me to discuss the mertis of them as a product, but with Odi's rep, i'd venture to trust the stuff he puts out.
I'll leave those better educated than me to discuss the mertis of them as a product, but with Odi's rep, i'd venture to trust the stuff he puts out.
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02-19-2019, 02:40 PM
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Wasn't quite 100% done with the install at this point, but should serve as to how the front shock sits. You can see how the locking collar sits right under the upper control arm and how that same collar hits the NB2 FUCA reinforcement (hadn't clearanced it at this point and was mocking it up to see what i was dealing with). I also overshot my initial ride height measurement at this point and was roughly 4" front pinch weld. A little framing of what you're looking at it since it's not the greatest pic.
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02-19-2019, 05:50 PM
#27
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How do you know?
BTW, I have driven XIDAs with and without helpers and I can tell a distinct difference. They are not required, but they make the shock package better. The only instance in which they would not help at all is in a very softly sprung setup. My old 300/200 ACEs did not use helpers in the front (or rear, I forget) because the main spring was not loose at full droop, so there was no point.
BTW, I have driven XIDAs with and without helpers and I can tell a distinct difference. They are not required, but they make the shock package better. The only instance in which they would not help at all is in a very softly sprung setup. My old 300/200 ACEs did not use helpers in the front (or rear, I forget) because the main spring was not loose at full droop, so there was no point.
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02-19-2019, 06:01 PM
#28
How do you know?
BTW, I have driven XIDAs with and without helpers and I can tell a distinct difference. They are not required, but they make the shock package better. The only instance in which they would not help at all is in a very softly sprung setup. My old 300/200 ACEs did not use helpers in the front (or rear, I forget) because the main spring was not loose at full droop, so there was no point.
BTW, I have driven XIDAs with and without helpers and I can tell a distinct difference. They are not required, but they make the shock package better. The only instance in which they would not help at all is in a very softly sprung setup. My old 300/200 ACEs did not use helpers in the front (or rear, I forget) because the main spring was not loose at full droop, so there was no point.
If it is, then the answer is DPE, mostly. But from a more general perspective, that i don't think a shock is extending that many inches in such a short amount of time unless being viewed in a vacuum instead of the real world in which there's a chassis with sway bars and such involved.
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02-19-2019, 06:20 PM
#30
As it turns out, yes Miata shocks can fully extend both on street and track. That is topping out, which is something we specifically identify and tune for when developing suspension bits. It's not urban legend, it's physics.
How hard and often a suspension tops varies obviously so YRMV. As Andrew mentioned, with soft enough springs, they have enough preload to never come loose at full droop.
Helpers are never mandatory but in most NA/NB applications with high rate springs, they will decrease contact patch load variation (a good thing), which is the whole purpose of the the shiny bits under the car.
My answer is always the same, the only reason not to add helpers is budgetary. They will still work, just not quite as well and over a narrower range of travel.
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02-19-2019, 06:25 PM
#31
DPE states otherwise. The only time i've had a spring unseat on any car, in any situation, across any platform, including however many Miatas i've had (far less than you), is when it's on jack stands.
In further polling, you were actually the first person i've ever heard of saying they had a spring unseat under driving conditions.
This doesn't really apply to me i suppose. I have Xidas and have to run helpers whether i believe in them or not (i'm sure they're great, i have no issues with them other than the 2 piece sliders being ultra cheap and disgusting) because i cannot achieve even halfway reasonable ride heights without them. Just Clubroadster fap poster material.
Maybe i need to drive harder to catch mad sick hang time.
In further polling, you were actually the first person i've ever heard of saying they had a spring unseat under driving conditions.
This doesn't really apply to me i suppose. I have Xidas and have to run helpers whether i believe in them or not (i'm sure they're great, i have no issues with them other than the 2 piece sliders being ultra cheap and disgusting) because i cannot achieve even halfway reasonable ride heights without them. Just Clubroadster fap poster material.
Maybe i need to drive harder to catch mad sick hang time.
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02-19-2019, 06:30 PM
#32
But not if you read up where that came from, no. The question was posed of me. Not by me.
So how do i test this? I'd like to add this to my library next to my super scientific "jounce test." 
Neither of my cars can fully extend/top out a shock if the other tire is still on the ground. The rebound/droop speed of either of them is also quite slow compared to the real world test of say.... skimming one tire over a mythical 6" deep manhole cover.
So, i know that my cars do/would not/could not unseat a spring in any real world driving scenario that i've run across. I think this is for the reasons i've posted.
Think vs know. Conjecture is welcome, just frame it as such.
As it turns out, yes Miata shocks can fully extend both on street and track. That is topping out, which is something we specifically identify and tune for when developing suspension bits. It's not urban legend, it's physics.
How hard and often a suspension tops varies obviously so YRMV. As Andrew mentioned, with soft enough springs, they have enough preload to never come loose at full droop.
Helpers are never mandatory but in most NA/NB applications with high rate springs, they will decrease contact patch load variation (a good thing), which is the whole purpose of the the shiny bits under the car.
My answer is always the same, the only reason not to add helpers is budgetary. They will still work, just not quite as well and over a narrower range of travel.
As it turns out, yes Miata shocks can fully extend both on street and track. That is topping out, which is something we specifically identify and tune for when developing suspension bits. It's not urban legend, it's physics.
How hard and often a suspension tops varies obviously so YRMV. As Andrew mentioned, with soft enough springs, they have enough preload to never come loose at full droop.
Helpers are never mandatory but in most NA/NB applications with high rate springs, they will decrease contact patch load variation (a good thing), which is the whole purpose of the the shiny bits under the car.
My answer is always the same, the only reason not to add helpers is budgetary. They will still work, just not quite as well and over a narrower range of travel.
Neither of my cars can fully extend/top out a shock if the other tire is still on the ground. The rebound/droop speed of either of them is also quite slow compared to the real world test of say.... skimming one tire over a mythical 6" deep manhole cover.
So, i know that my cars do/would not/could not unseat a spring in any real world driving scenario that i've run across. I think this is for the reasons i've posted.
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02-19-2019, 06:39 PM
#33
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Ok, so the travel vs rate vs different designs of shock travel and the effects are making more sense.... becoming less confusing to me. Which with what I'm understanding, would make the Xidas make more sense.... given the car is a hard-driven daily driver and exposed to more "real world" conditions.
Like I said, I had the custom Ohlins for so long and never noticed any issues that caught my attention when driving hard (autoX/track/smooth mountain roads), that I admit I never really dovae into the differences of other setups and their designs. Hell, the height/dampening I had them set to had me hanging right behind Bob Bundy at one of FM's Summer Camps (he did had 150+rwhp and much wider/stickier tires than me). So nothing had me wondering "what could make these better when pushing hard on them".
With that, and the rest of the discussion happening, I've been given the opportunity to also include adding to my decision making, a set of double-adjustable remote reservoir custom FCMs.....hmmmm.
Interesting. I'd still imagine the custom 441s are a good product in the price range. It is sounding like the Xidas would be more of what I'd be expecting.
Like I said, I had the custom Ohlins for so long and never noticed any issues that caught my attention when driving hard (autoX/track/smooth mountain roads), that I admit I never really dovae into the differences of other setups and their designs. Hell, the height/dampening I had them set to had me hanging right behind Bob Bundy at one of FM's Summer Camps (he did had 150+rwhp and much wider/stickier tires than me). So nothing had me wondering "what could make these better when pushing hard on them".
With that, and the rest of the discussion happening, I've been given the opportunity to also include adding to my decision making, a set of double-adjustable remote reservoir custom FCMs.....hmmmm.
Interesting. I'd still imagine the custom 441s are a good product in the price range. It is sounding like the Xidas would be more of what I'd be expecting.
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02-19-2019, 07:00 PM
#35
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Oh trust me when I say this is a decision that's going to be made in as little time as possible....as in a couple of weeks at most (time consideration based on when FCMs will be available for purchase). It'd be hard to pass up the deal. The are other factors at play which are making this a "get it done ASAP" situation.
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02-19-2019, 07:19 PM
#38
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If you actually drive them back to back, this is exactly what you feel. Over big curb hits, the car re-composes itself much better on the backside, owing to the shock being able to get started on the task at hand a bit earlier.
You cannot prove this while jumping on your door sill, unfortunately.
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02-19-2019, 07:31 PM
#39
Yes. That sounds reasonable. But saying that a main spring is going to become unseated in a way that becomes detrimental is asinine. And the damper is applying compression valving "as soon as the car begins to come down" anyways. That's literally what "compression" means.
I also do not buy that the inside/unloaded side of a Miata (let's say my car. Or my other car. Or any MT.net-approved trackday HPDE Hustler gloryhole car) is "topping out" a damper unless they're running some super goofy zero sway bar points build. I can jack up one side of my car, or my other car 25" in the air, and because it has, you know, sway bars, the shocks hanging out in the air will not "top out." DPE: Floated my rear wheel a good 6-8" in Flier129's driveway trying to get in and out of it. Spring never unseated. Weird.
Now of course, that spring/preload/whatever you want to call it is helping things. But my initial disbelief came at the "keeps your springs from unseating!"
I guess if your car is painted 949 with an 01 on the doors, sure.
Also: i beat you to the jokes about my "jounce test." Get treed!
I also do not buy that the inside/unloaded side of a Miata (let's say my car. Or my other car. Or any MT.net-approved trackday HPDE Hustler gloryhole car) is "topping out" a damper unless they're running some super goofy zero sway bar points build. I can jack up one side of my car, or my other car 25" in the air, and because it has, you know, sway bars, the shocks hanging out in the air will not "top out." DPE: Floated my rear wheel a good 6-8" in Flier129's driveway trying to get in and out of it. Spring never unseated. Weird.
Now of course, that spring/preload/whatever you want to call it is helping things. But my initial disbelief came at the "keeps your springs from unseating!"
I guess if your car is painted 949 with an 01 on the doors, sure.
Also: i beat you to the jokes about my "jounce test." Get treed!
Last edited by concealer404; 02-20-2019 at 08:53 AM.
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02-19-2019, 07:42 PM
#40
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I have photos of Rover 4-wheels up going over curbs on track. Stop referencing irrelevant examples of how one time you jacked one side of your car up in the air while waiting for your Grindr date.
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