Trackspeed Engineering 12-tooth crank trigger wheel
 

There has been some mumbling and discussion on how cool it would be to have one of these, so I decided to wait on posting this until I had them in-hand. TSE has 12-tooth OEM-location crank trigger wheels in stock. These use the OEM 99+ crank sensor and provide a significant increase in resolution over the OEM trigger wheels. Because they are equally spaced, it is now possible for MSPNP/MS1 guys to join the crank trigger club as well. The teeth are very similar to the OEM tooth profile to ensure that these are as mechanically plug-and-play as possible.

The prototype wheel is working flawlessly on an AEM-equipped car. That car went from +/- 3 degrees of timing slop to +/- <1 degree. Setup info for AEMs with and without VVT will be out shortly, MS2 following that, MS1 following that. We may offer a PnP kit for MS1/MS2 guys at some point, but if you are willing to sort it out yourself jump on this.

The wheels with spacers will retail for $49. To keep costs down, these were manufactured in two pieces - a flat wheel and a spacer. We found the spacer was necessary on some cars to keep the crank trigger clear of the harmonic balancer. They will come with every wheel - if you need it, good, if you don't need it, good.

Attachment 195835

You are a God. You know that, right?

So having this will make the timing on my car more accurate, therefore I can squeeze every last ounce of timing without worrying if my shit will blow due to timing inconsistency?

Bingo. It's an easy test to do - set your timing at a static 10 degrees, watch the crank pulley with a timing light, and rev the motor. It should never move from 10 degrees, but of course it does - the prototype car was seeing about 3 degrees retard while the RPMs were increasing, and 3 degrees advance while the RPMs were decreasing. The same thing happens when you are accelerating in-gear. With the high tooth count, the motor copes with changes in RPM much better, which means the 10 degrees you are watching at idle will stay at 10 degrees no matter what you do with the throttle.

Sav, will this work with ATI damper?

I'm not sure, never tried. If the OEM NB piece fits with the ATI, this should fit as well.

For the ATI damper, you'll need to open up the ID and drill 4 new holes for the mounting bolts.

--Ferdi

Awesome. In for when the PnP solution comes for MSPNP. This + VVT box = Happy with MSPNP.

How would these function on a 93 longnose....

Sav,

Is this the final version, or where there be a missing tooth wheel in the works? A 12-1 wouldn't require a cam sensor, where a 12 tooth wheel would. You could also run sequential with a 12-1 and a cam sensor.

That mostly answers the question I had: what would I need to do in order to run sequential with this wheel? Could one just carefully file/grind off one tooth? It doesn't look like a lot of mass there, but it is on the outer radius so would that affect balance enough to cause problems? Or would that not be necessary if I ran it in conjunction with the CAS?

IIRC you must have a number of teeth divisible by 4 (cylinders) plus the missing tooth, all evenly spaced.

so a 12-1 wheel; where there are 12 teeth plus one missing tooth evenly spaced. or a 4-2, or 36-1, etc, etc.

otherwise you use the CAS for a cam sensor for the second trigger.

This

A 12-1 wheel will have 11 teeth. It would look just like the trigger wheel pictured earlier, but remove one tooth. All teeth evenly spaced except the "missing" tooth creates a single double sized gap. The missing tooth is used to signify crank angle. Sequential will also require a 1 tooth wheel spinning at cam speed to designate cycle. Remember the crank spins 720°, or 2 complete revolutions, for 1 cycle. The missing tooth will tell us we are at TDC, but not tell us if we are starting an intake cycle or starting a power cycle. The cam wheel will give us this information.

I would suspect that you would be able to carefully remove one tooth from this wheel. However I would suggest that the wheel be fabricated without the tooth, as I can't think of an application that would not benefit.

thanks for clearing that up.

The AEM can be made to work with the 12 tooth wheel in NON VVT apps.

In a VVT app one tooth MUST be removed. And IIRC there is a choice of only 3 tooth locations that can be removed, and arguably 1 of them is optimal.

Does the AEM then use the 3 tooth NB cam wheel for sync (non VVT)?

MegaSquirt (and most others) can use a 12 tooth crank with a 1 tooth cam in lieu of a missing tooth on the crank wheel.

The AEM can use either VVT or non-VVT NB cam signal for sync.
They are very similar.

Designed specifically for use with the OEM 99+ crank sensor. Same tooth profile. I glanced at Nick's 1.6 SM this morning and it has the mounting boss for the OEM 99+ sensor as well. Haven't looked at the two stock '94s in the backyard but I will next week. I know my car has the mount, but it's a '99+ oil pump. I won't say that it will bolt right onto a 1.6 car since I haven't done it myself but I'll stick it on the front of Nick's car next week to check fitment with the crank pulley. We should be able to supply the sensors as well but we don't have them in stock.

As far as the missing tooth (or lack of a missing tooth), this product started as a bit of a pet project for myself and a few other folks, all of us using AEMs. We wanted a wheel to mate up with OEM NB cam/crank sensors (I think the prototype car is using a modified NA CAS), and those of us who needed a missing tooth could just shave it off. The design is with non-VVT AEM cars in mind, since we were originally going to make about 5 of these, but after looking at the manufacturing process and getting a few quotes, economically it made sense to make lots more of them. (It's the same reason there are 12 teeth instead of 36 teeth - the AEM ignores everything past 12 teeth.) It's easy to grind a tooth off wherever you need, and it's something we can do here if you tell us which tooth you want gone.

I would be stunned if there were a balance issue with grinding a tooth off, based on the way the OEM wheel is done (4 teeth unequally spaced).

I'm so glad I'm getting in on this.

I abhor the stock CAS. I now have a total of 3 of them in my possession after one died, leaving me stranded in the snow 100miles from home...

I am also looking forward to some real resolution, and more accurate timing. Between the higher resolution of MS2, and better spray pattern/accuracy of the RC injectors, I'd be doing my new setup an injustice if I didn't switch to a crank trigger.

I'm not going to necessarily blame two cracked pistons and a bent rod on the stock slop due to the CAS, but my conservative, security blanketed tune ate a motor, and suffice to say I'm not fucking around this time.

Doesn't this work in conjunction with the stock CAS on an NA?

If that's true, would this not introduce another point of failure instead of a redundancy?

can this be mounted on the NA 1.6l cranl pulley as well? anyone know or can compare?

I was going to grind off a tooth, but even then you may be right since you'd have to know whether it's beginning or mid-cycle.

Either way the redundancy is worth it to me for more accurate timing which can't be done with the CAS. Mine varied more like 5* while revving...advance.

Oh, i'm right there with you on still wanting it, i just didn't know if it would save us from CAS failures... of which i've had one too. :/

Sav, we both have '94's, which don't have the crank sensor from the factory. Did you wire in the connector or what?

With the AEM you wire power and ground to the sensor and then wire the trigger into the OE harness. The OEM CAS is 4 wires: power, ground, cam signal, and crank signal. Beyond that, it's software settings.

Since Sav let the cat out of the bag, I can post pics now :)

I've been running the wheel in my '94 for over a month now with 3 races during that period.
Works flawless so far.
I've been trying to convince someone make this wheel for few years now.
Props to Sav + friend for doing it! :winner:



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You use the connector from a driver side power door lock from a NB :D
Much easier to find one from there than to source it from an engine harness. Once you wire it - it looks OEM. For a really clean install you can use the wire bracket off an NB to hold the wire (the bracket which is held by the timing belt cover bolt). Don't forget to use a shielded wire.

To mount the trigger wheel you need the shorter pulley boss from a '96-'05 Miata. Do not use the longer '94-'95 pulley boss.

Now you owe me a beer :P

Dunno if/how you can adapt it to a '93 (I don't have any experience with the 1.6), but if you want to see it in person - show up at the Alexian Field events at the end of August.

Looking forward to fitting on a few of our cars. Thanks go out to those that worked with us in the development of this item. It's TSE's baby now. Now get to work on that sensor kit Sav!

Thanks for helping to develop it. Thanks to Julien and Jason C as well, they were both instrumental in producing a usable product. :)

Can I ask why you can not use the pulley boss from a 94-95? I put the stock 4 prong timing wheel on my 94 pulley boss and it seems to fit fine.

If you use the '94-'95 boss and you add the timing wheel the crank pulley/belts would be shifted forward.
In '96, with the addition of the crank trigger wheel, Mazda changed pulley boss by making it that much thinner so the crank pulley/belts don't move. All the '96-'05 Miata engines have that new thinner pulley boss.

Or I should've said - you can use the '94-'95 boss but just know that you'll end up with the belts shifted forward by about 3mm total. Use that at your own risk.

I need kit, nga.

Thanks for the response. I just checked Finishlineperformance and they have different parts listed. I did not know that there was a difference between the 2. I guess I will have to go source a 96+ one very soon.

I'm still unclear as to whether this allows you to remove the CAS on the NA. I have a 1.8l in my 93.

Assuming you are running batch fire, yes. You would need to remove 1 tooth off of the wheel and set your tune up for a 12-1 missing tooth wheel.

If you are running sequential, you will need to modify your CAS so it has a 1 tooth wheel and use it for sync, or you can replace the CAS with the base of a 4/1 dizzy from a FWD BP.

Which would be "better"

Sequential is going to be more desirable, at the cost of being forced to make CAS modifications.

in for a kit assuming this will work for ATI damper!

I would be interested in using a 36-1 wheel, or maybe a 60-2 wheel for even more resolution. MS will use higher tooth count wheels, so what are the chances of looking into that. There is a big MS crowd here too. It'll be win/win.

As someone who is running seq. injection & injection, I'd say it's worth doing what you have to. Modding the CAS is easy.

I modified my CAS too - I removed the longer one of the two teeth. It is a 15 minute job.

None. The AEM ignores everything beyond a 12-tooth wheel and the resolution is excellent. We have no plans and no expected plans to do a second version of these with more teeth.

Are you certain the MSII/III actually uses all 36/60 teeth? There was some discussion on what ECUs like Pectel and Motec use while we were developing this and the consensus was that 12 teeth was more than adequate.

I read on the MS forums about someone who managed to use electromotives crank trigger setup on there MS. I am not too sure which ms unit it was. Gives me hope because my TEC 2 units are getting old, and i am considering ms in the future for my miata and mx6.

Either way, -/+ >1 deg is a subsantially improvement, given the low tooth count. I too will be loking forward to a sensor kit as well.

The AEM can run a 36-1 and a 60-2 wheel too, my question is whether it actually uses all 36/60 teeth to calculate crank position. The AEM does not.

So for us noobs (specifically hustler and I), how and what would we need to get this going on our MSPNPs?

You're not the only one who wants to know.

MS1 would only use 2 teeth to calculate crank position and ignore the rest. MS2 or MS3 will use all teeth to calculate crank position.

MSI:
http://msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/MS_E...l.htm#twotrigs

MS-II is much easier to setup:
http://msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2-Extra_Dual.htm

If you'll be using a hall sensor, all you should need to do is wire it up and change your wheel decoder settings.

A VR sensor could also be used, but would require some (minor) wiring changes inside the ECU.

MS3 sounds better every day. I'd like to get more precision so I wonder if upgrading with MS1 is a worthwhile idea?

seq. fuel and spark on my 1.6L is win. all I need is the trigger wheel and I'm a big boy (although the timing looks pretty solid as is). With a v3.57 MS3 w/ MS3X + DIYBOB, that shit would be retardedly easy to setup.

bonus, if you have extra oil/coolant temp/pressure gauges, you can easily bring that into the MS3 to log...

Where do I connect this potential hall sensor? I think I found my NB hall sensor in my parent's garage, hopefully its not from the VW era. I need to read that write up a few more times too, it still sounds like another language to me.

A hall sensor will have 3 wires, switched 12V, sensor ground, signal out. The first two should be pretty obvious. Since you have a 1.6 wiring harness, the signal out will need to go into the MegaSquirt on the pin labeled 2E in the diagram below:

http://www.boostedmiata.com/gallery2...ne_harness.jpg

Alternatively, you could bring the hall sensor's output to the MSPNP's center connector and wire a jumper inside the box from the wire you used to MegaSquirt pin 24. Either way, make sure you unplug the stock CAS.

I've got both of our shop cars (one 90, one 94) wired through the OEM harness - it's a piece of cake.

Sorry to whore out your thread but you don't seem to answer your PMs. I need some info about the COPs. Like when I can expect them. Will be finishing my car in September and it is really the only thing I'm waiting on.

Not a problem, I must have overlooked it. My apologies. I'll go find it in a moment.

So as I see it my easiest option to get a proper crank wheel is to:

• grid the TDC tooth off
• get a Hall sensor from Rock Auto for $35
• unplug Mr. CAS and throw it in the garbage
• place CAS "plug" back in the head
• wire Hall sensor to connector 2E (Mspnp9093)
• keep it on batch-fire
• adjust crank wheel setting (can someone please spoon feed this to me?)
• hit it with the timing light to set timing
• add ~3* spark advance back in to compensate for the cranks ~3* head-start/stretchy timing belt

Questions:

• can someone spoon feed me instructions on the crank settings for my mspnp9093?
• do you love me?