Speculation and Discussion Thread about V8Roadsters LFX Swap
07-25-2014, 09:05 PM
#23
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I have been hoping for some time that some one would stuff one of the these newer V6's with direct injection into a miata. GM, Ford, Hyundai, Nissan, whatever. I love that they are lighter and cheaper than V8 but yet more torque and power than most 4's. I'm very glad someone is coming to market with a bolt in kit!
Now I really wish I didn't blow my **** up and spend 3k on rebuilding! Damn! Maybe forged bottom end BP for sale?
I'm also very curious to see what power can be had using D.I. Or other possibilities? Has anyone started spraying fuel during exhaust stroke to keep turbos spooled? I fuggin love the potencial of D.I. and hugely variable cams on both intake and exhaust!
Now I really wish I didn't blow my **** up and spend 3k on rebuilding! Damn! Maybe forged bottom end BP for sale?
I'm also very curious to see what power can be had using D.I. Or other possibilities? Has anyone started spraying fuel during exhaust stroke to keep turbos spooled? I fuggin love the potencial of D.I. and hugely variable cams on both intake and exhaust!
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07-26-2014, 08:25 AM
#24
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I have been following the LFX swap for a while. The mounting kit can actually be purchased now but there is still a lot of information that needs to get released before I am sure I want to head down the path.
Some of the info I have found:
Some of the info I have found:
- The crate engine is cheaper than an LS crate, but still not what we would call cheap
- While tons of V6 camaros have been sold, most are AT
- They actually sell more MT V8 cars than MT V6 cars
- I have yet to find a source for new Camaro MTs for sale
- The ECU has been cracked
- Will they be offering a reasonably priced kit to allow the use of the stock diff without the PPF?
- What will be needed/involved for fuel delivery, cooling, gauges?
- How tall is this engine? I have seen some people say 30" but that can't be right if V8R got it to fit under the hood of a Miata.
- Will you be able to easily mix and match engines, trans, ecu, harness, or will it be a nightmare to get everything to play nice if they did not all come from the same donor?
- Will other car guys like the street-rod crowd embrace this engine for swaps which could lead to the availability of easy strip down plug and play ECU and harness setups like is available for the LS?
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07-26-2014, 08:51 AM
#25
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Shandelle indicated the trannies were available new from GM in a crate because he quoted a "new" price from GM to me. I just don't recall exactly what it was.
I'm sure all will be revealed in good time. This is just a speculation thread.
The Caddy version called the LF3 comes as a twin turbo 420hp.
MORE
I'm sure all will be revealed in good time. This is just a speculation thread.
The Caddy version called the LF3 comes as a twin turbo 420hp.
LF3
The 3.6 L twin-turbocharged version for the 2014 Cadillac CTS and 2014 Cadillac XTS has been announced at the 2013 NYAS.[16]
The engine is rated at 420 hp (313 kW) of power @ 5750 rpm and 430 lb·ft (583 N·m) of torque @ 3500-4500 rpm (with 90% of torque being available at 2500-5500 rpm) and helps the CTS achieve 0-60 mph time of 4.6 seconds with an 8-speed automatic transmission.
In essence, the twin-turbo 3.6L V6 is the force-inducted variant of the popular LFX V6 currently found in the Cadillac ATS, XTS, and SRX, among many other GM models, with several important upgrades, including:
All-new cylinder block casting
All-new cylinder head castings
Strengthened connecting rods
Forged steel crankshaft
Continuously variable valve timing
Large 38.3 mm intake valves and 30.6 mm sodium-filled exhaust valves
Machined, domed aluminum pistons with top steel ring carrier for greater strength
10.2:1 compression ratio
Patented, integrated charge air cooler system with low-volume air ducts
Two turbochargers produce more than 12 pounds of boost (80 kPa)
Vacuum-actuated wastegates with electronic control valves
All-new direct injection fuel system
Tuned air inlet and outlet resonators, aluminum cam covers and other features that contribute to exceptional quietness and smoothness.
Applications:
Year(s) Model Power Torque Dyno Chart
2014–present Cadillac XTS 410 hp (306 kW) @ 5750 rpm 369 lb·ft (500 N·m) @ 3500-4500 rpm link
2014–present Cadillac CTS 420 hp (313 kW) @ 5750 rpm 430 lb·ft (583 N·m) @ 3500-4500 rpm link
V12
The 3.6 L twin-turbocharged version for the 2014 Cadillac CTS and 2014 Cadillac XTS has been announced at the 2013 NYAS.[16]
The engine is rated at 420 hp (313 kW) of power @ 5750 rpm and 430 lb·ft (583 N·m) of torque @ 3500-4500 rpm (with 90% of torque being available at 2500-5500 rpm) and helps the CTS achieve 0-60 mph time of 4.6 seconds with an 8-speed automatic transmission.
In essence, the twin-turbo 3.6L V6 is the force-inducted variant of the popular LFX V6 currently found in the Cadillac ATS, XTS, and SRX, among many other GM models, with several important upgrades, including:
All-new cylinder block casting
All-new cylinder head castings
Strengthened connecting rods
Forged steel crankshaft
Continuously variable valve timing
Large 38.3 mm intake valves and 30.6 mm sodium-filled exhaust valves
Machined, domed aluminum pistons with top steel ring carrier for greater strength
10.2:1 compression ratio
Patented, integrated charge air cooler system with low-volume air ducts
Two turbochargers produce more than 12 pounds of boost (80 kPa)
Vacuum-actuated wastegates with electronic control valves
All-new direct injection fuel system
Tuned air inlet and outlet resonators, aluminum cam covers and other features that contribute to exceptional quietness and smoothness.
Applications:
Year(s) Model Power Torque Dyno Chart
2014–present Cadillac XTS 410 hp (306 kW) @ 5750 rpm 369 lb·ft (500 N·m) @ 3500-4500 rpm link
2014–present Cadillac CTS 420 hp (313 kW) @ 5750 rpm 430 lb·ft (583 N·m) @ 3500-4500 rpm link
V12
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07-26-2014, 11:12 AM
#26
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Shandelle indicated the trannies were available new from GM in a crate because he quoted a "new" price from GM to me. I just don't recall exactly what it was.
I'm sure all will be revealed in good time. This is just a speculation thread.
The Caddy version called the LF3 comes as a twin turbo 420hp.
MORE
I'm sure all will be revealed in good time. This is just a speculation thread.
The Caddy version called the LF3 comes as a twin turbo 420hp.
MORE
Speculating on total cost to do with all new parts:
Crate Engine: $4400
ECU/Harness: $1000
Transmission: $3000
Clutch/flywheel: $500
Mounting Kit: $1800
Custom Exhaust: $800
Cooling: $800
Diff mount PPF Elimination kit: $400
Driveshaft: $300
Gauges adaptation: $500
Fuel delivery: $300
DBW Gas peddle: $200
Lots of guesses there but that adds up to $14k. Probably can save 6k going with junkyard parts for the first 4 items on the list, but figure at-least a grand in unexpected costs. A safe budget for a junkyard build is probably $10k. I guess I need to save more.
Now the LF3 would be crazy. It isn't available as a crate motor at this time but maybe some day. I'm guessing you would need to go with their full rear end conversion kit as well at those levels.
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07-26-2014, 04:06 PM
#27
Not a speculation about the kit but rater a very special case of finding parts that might fit my purpose. Thinking out loud and storing my thoughts is a good place.
Purpose; Get a swap made using a 2.8+AY6+Getrag diff to meet the requirement for registration as "modified Vehicle" here. Max 150Kw/ton in that case so LFX might be a later change under the radar.
1. Transmission, the AY6 would suit my purpose nicely, and the TR6060 seems to be even more expensive than the T56 (used).
In which cars are the AY6 most common in the US (cheapest dumpster find)? Yes, I can read Wikipedia...
Would all GM AY6 have the same bolt pattern and starter location?
2. Engine, the 2.8 LP1 was only available in the CTS 05-07 according to Wiki, but it does not seem to be that common. one found on ebay for $1k (with a note "FWD", huh).
Is the 2.8 with external headers much bigger than the LFX (who knows, why touch a small engine)?
3. Diff+axles, I need to get something not-miata to qualify for "modified".
V8R Getrag is apparently pulled from CTS, so one more part from the same car. Getting axles made should not be difficult locally.
It would be wonderful if engine, gearbox and diff could be sourced from the same CTS here in Europe. There are some 2.8 with manuals available for about 5k euros (counting shipping and taxes and it's 1:1 €:$ from my perspective).
Would the ECU for the 2.8 play nice (have it been cracked)? But who knows what's in a Euro CTS?
Hmm, who would want a CTS without engine/trans/diff/axles?
But this is something different than crate LFX + crate TR6060 and using the miata diff. Carry on.
Purpose; Get a swap made using a 2.8+AY6+Getrag diff to meet the requirement for registration as "modified Vehicle" here. Max 150Kw/ton in that case so LFX might be a later change under the radar.
1. Transmission, the AY6 would suit my purpose nicely, and the TR6060 seems to be even more expensive than the T56 (used).
In which cars are the AY6 most common in the US (cheapest dumpster find)? Yes, I can read Wikipedia...
Would all GM AY6 have the same bolt pattern and starter location?
2. Engine, the 2.8 LP1 was only available in the CTS 05-07 according to Wiki, but it does not seem to be that common. one found on ebay for $1k (with a note "FWD", huh).
Is the 2.8 with external headers much bigger than the LFX (who knows, why touch a small engine)?
3. Diff+axles, I need to get something not-miata to qualify for "modified".
V8R Getrag is apparently pulled from CTS, so one more part from the same car. Getting axles made should not be difficult locally.
It would be wonderful if engine, gearbox and diff could be sourced from the same CTS here in Europe. There are some 2.8 with manuals available for about 5k euros (counting shipping and taxes and it's 1:1 €:$ from my perspective).
Would the ECU for the 2.8 play nice (have it been cracked)? But who knows what's in a Euro CTS?
Hmm, who would want a CTS without engine/trans/diff/axles?
But this is something different than crate LFX + crate TR6060 and using the miata diff. Carry on.
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07-26-2014, 06:15 PM
#30
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The 2.8 is the same block, so dimensions should be the same.
Would the PPF need to be eliminated. Is there any reason it couldn't just be bolted to a bracket on the cross-member?
Would the PPF need to be eliminated. Is there any reason it couldn't just be bolted to a bracket on the cross-member?
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09-08-2014, 04:25 PM
#33
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Jumping in to bump this...
The car was at Laguna, and here's a couple of quotes from a thread on M.net:
Anyone here get a look at/ride in it?
The car was at Laguna, and here's a couple of quotes from a thread on M.net:
V8 Roadsters had their very first V6 NB running around Laguna Seca at the 25th Anniversary Miata meet yesterday. It looked very well finished, as expected. Tons of ground clearance and tons of room in front of the engine as well. Word is that with the six speed that comes with that engine (2012 Camaro) there are no need for transmission tunnel modifications.
Did about 15 laps around Laguna with Steve. Very pleasantly surprised with torque and power. 7200 rev limit and pulls hard all the way. Chassis was set up for street and had 360 tread wear tires but it drove around most everything on the straights. It's going to be an awesome alternative to LS and the next step is to try to get smog legality in Ca.
Did about 15 laps around Laguna with Steve. Very pleasantly surprised with torque and power. 7200 rev limit and pulls hard all the way. Chassis was set up for street and had 360 tread wear tires but it drove around most everything on the straights. It's going to be an awesome alternative to LS and the next step is to try to get smog legality in Ca.
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09-13-2014, 07:06 PM
#39
I see they filled it with dexcool. :( Getting an engine with zero trace of dexcool in it might make the new crate engine option worth it. Also notice that its using the GM coolant expansion tank that has the rad cap on it and a radiator with no rad cap. Will that be included in the kit? I mean you could always just put a very high rated cap on the radiator or add a bunch of shims to the spring to jack the rate up.
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09-14-2014, 08:37 AM
#40
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This transplant is what is delaying my engine build. If it's a 10k swap I can probably get 1/2 that selling all of my current turbo stuff. Factor in the $3k I'd spend building the new motor and it's only $2k more for the v6.
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